When your narcissistic LO tells you not to call them!

MidKid,

We can divorce spouses, parents, in laws, siblings and so on!

Life can become so peaceful after a divorce.

I was fortunate to have a fantastic MIL but I divorced my brothers!

My mom's mad at me again and throwing one of her tantrums. The reason is because Monday eve she decided she wanted to buy a African Grey parrot, she sent an email to me and my 2 siblings- "I want this bird". I was hoping she would drop it by the next day (yesterday) but no. When I called her about coming over for dinner ALL she wanted to talk about was this parrot she is getting.

My mom had an Amazon parrot for 25+ years, so I am well aware of the work involved with these birds. This is not something she can do on her own now, at all, no matter how much she wants it. I told her I didn't think it was a good idea, and she instantly got very angry. She started saying that my sister and my brother think it's a GREAT idea, and what is wrong with me?

I quickly changed the subject to what time she was coming over and got off the phone. By then my mood is tanking fast so I decided to text her to let her know that I would not be talking about her getting a parrot when she came over, and if that makes her mad maybe we should have dinner on a different day?

Her response was that her getting a parrot was none of my business, and NO she wasn't coming over. I haven't talked to her since.

Meanwhile my DH emailed our property manager and come to find out only dogs and cats are allowed here.

I'm so tired of always being the bad guy. WTH are my siblings thinking to tell her getting a large parrot is a GREAT idea??

Piper,

Can you ask your siblings to deliver the news.

She will chew you out when you tell her. Grrrrr

Would she react the same with them? My mom treats my brothers differently.

Let them deliver the news that the building doesn’t allow birds.

Hi NHWM,

I sent my mom a simple straight forward text that the building manager told us only dogs and cats are allowed. That was about an hour ago.

She might call the property manager herself, but that's okay, she will get the same info.

I don't want to talk to my siblings at all. Not only do they not offer any support, but they make things worse for me when they validate bad decisions on her end. It feeds her anger at me. It's like they don't even consider that she has dementia. She can barely take care of herself let alone a high maintenance large bird. I guess they figured I would just do the work.

EP, do you think that your siblings ACTUALLY told your mom that getting the bird was a good idea?

Or is that what MOM is telling you they told her?

The truth might lie somewhere in between.

I suggest you email your siblings in a neutral tone and ask what they actually said to mom.

"Yes, getting a pet is a great idea, Mom. Maybe you should talk to EP about that" is what comes to mind. Or maybe "hmmmm" (meaning that they weren't really listening to what she was saying.

On the bright side, if she brings in the bird and can't care for it, she might get evicted!

Barb, I think they did tell her it was a great idea. It's becoming a pattern that they just appease her on whatever she says. They did the same thing when she was on a roll about driving.

My mom responded to my text. She was angry that I "got involved" and asked the property manager if birds were allowed. She said she figured that was a rule and if she got caught she would deal with it. So she was planning to sneak a bird in. Figures.

I told her she can't live here and have a bird. End of story. Look for a dog if she wants a pet. Left it at that. This drama is so draining.

Piper,

I understand. You know best as to how to deal with your siblings.

I have issues with my siblings too. It’s a shame but we can’t control or change their actions.

I am all for helping someone out but I definitely don’t want to be my siblings teacher or mother! If they don’t know how to act by now, they never will!

I have done the same as you. I prefer not to have contact with them. I speak to my mom directly also.

If we had a ‘normal’ relationship with our siblings then there could be healthy communication.

Not a chance of that in my family!

My siblings wanted to remain mom’s favorite sons so they NEVER hesitated to kick me to the curb!

Unreal. My mom just emailed me 18 pictures of the parrot with the subject line- MY African Gray

Ummmm, Piper; I've been thinking about the pattern of the "dance" that you and your mother do. (Note that I think your stepping in on the driving thing was the right thing to do.)

Your mother calls or emails you with something she is going to do.

You react with "no, you can't/shouldn't do that". (Reasonable if you were "in charge" of her. But you're not).

How about taking a page out of siblings' book: neutral responses. She bears the consequences of her actions and other folks start to notice that she is failing.

YOU do not care for the bird. "Sorry mom, the bird is YOUR responsiblity".

It might be worth a try.

Piper,

Geeeeeeeez!

Barb you are right I can't control what she does, and she is letting me know that with her defiant email.

I'm not responding anymore. Nope, done. I will not be lifting a finger to help her get a bird, and if she does manage to bring one in here she will be the one to deal with the fall out.

My mom's willingness to break the rules is disturbing.

But the "breaking the rules" is a pattern, too, isn't it? Like when her license was suspended in one state? Drinking and driving?

I say this often, but I think it bears repeating. If your loved one insists on their "independence", doing almost ANYTHING for them supports that charade.

Just be unavailable.

Write yourself a note on your fridge and on the door you use to exit your home. UNAVAILABLE in large, friendly letters.

Piper,

My cousin in New Jersey had a cockatoo.

They cost a lot of money and live a very long time! Like any pet, they require and deserve attention.

When my cousin and his wife divorced, he got the bird. LOL, 🤣 that didn’t come out right but you know what I mean. He got custody of his bird!

My cousin moved into an apartment that didn’t allow pets so he moved the bird into my uncle’s basement.

Mind you, my uncle was elderly and nearly deaf!

My uncle was in a busy area in the city so there were always sirens sounding off from police cars, fire trucks and ambulances that the bird would mimic!

Three of my cousins looked after my uncle.

My other cousin, one of my uncle’s daughters went to check in on her dad and did not know that her brother had dropped off his bird at their dad’s house to live.

She kept hearing sirens. She freaked out!

Then she heard the bird making a telephone ringing sound.

She told her dad to answer his phone.

Well, he doesn’t hear his phone. He’s just about deaf! He had it set on vibrate. It wasn’t vibrating so he tells his daughter, “Honey, my phone isn’t ringing. The sounds must be coming from your brother’s bird in the basement!”

So my cousin went down to her dad’s basement and the bird was being very vocal! He also got bored. He tore up my uncle’s basement, the window sills, etc.

When my uncle’s Parkinson’s disease became progressively worse he had to go into a nursing home.

My cousin had to sell his bird. He wasn’t allowed to keep him in his apartment.

My uncle couldn’t move him into the nursing home!

You are right. Birds are a lot of work. All animals are. They are a responsibility and if we can’t care for them it isn’t fair to the animal to acquire one.

I personally hope that your mom will not get a bird. Do you think she would do well with a dog or cat? Cats are fairly independent.

Honestly, it sounds like your mom is strong willed. It’s exhausting!

I used to try and stop everything or should I say prevent everything that I felt like I should regarding mom’s behavior.

My husband, on the other hand did not react the way I did.

He used to tell me that it wasn’t my problem. I often said to him, “Don’t you see that I am trying to prevent this or that?”

He would say to me, “I see my wife driving herself crazy. Your mom is going to get upset no matter what you say or do, so stay out of it. Let her figure it out.”

It took me awhile before I could comprehend what he was saying.

My mom had grown accustomed to my fussing over every little thing. I didn’t realize that I was overly involved. Maybe mom didn’t realize it either. I guess I kind of filled the void of my deceased father.

My behavior became irrational because it went against the grain of who I am.

I didn’t raise my children this way. I taught them that they were responsible for their behavior.

It’s really interesting how caregiving can totally change the dynamics of a family. In my case, not for the better!

Piper, I’ve been busy and out of this forum loop for the past few days. Then I pick up this thread. Parrots! Honestly, you couldn’t make it up! Absolutely crackers. I know many of us worry about what our seniors might do next, but really, there is no way you could have seen this one coming. I expect trying to stay neutral and uninvolved is the best way forward but I can totally understand why this is easier said than done. Continuing with the theme of parrots, if you need cheering up, do watch Monty Python’s “Dead Parrot” sketch. It is very old but very funny, and maybe you need a laugh right now!

Piper.....ooooh oooooh....you just figured out a way to shut ya mother down. Tell her NO, she can't have something nor will you talk about it and STAY HOME if you can't follow the rules! 🤣 Love it!!!

A freaking parrot. For a demented elder to take care of aka for YOU to take care of. What a joke. And what a filthy mess and a RACKET! Thank GOD the management said no! What makes you so sure your siblings think it's such a great idea? Bc your mother said so? Two things NMs love to do....break the rules by defying authority and LIE LIKE RUGS! 😅

Piper,

Your siblings sound like one of my younger brothers!!

There's a name for their compliant behavior, they're are "Flying Monkeys "!! Lol

Bundleofjoy,

Thank you so much for your kind words!

I'm feeling pretty good!! Fingers crossed that 2021 is gonna be a much better year for all of us!!

(((Hugs)))

Just jumping in here, also dealing with a narcissist. Mine is a borderline hoarder and is going to have to empty her home and move to a much smaller place sometime soon because she assumed I was going to be her retirement plan and saved no money. (She did volunteer work which flattered her ego for years instead of using her advanced degree - now this is my problem - why??)

Went over there last night and found out the "decluttering" she said she's been doing for months consists thus far of giving some things of mine worth at least $1000 to the Goodwill without asking or telling me, while everything of hers remained untouched. I mentioned she could have called me to come get them, and got the lies and gaslighting with which I'm sure you all are familiar.

I am so angry. I am so tired of listening to her complain about problem that HER actions created. I didn't make her fail to work or save or accumulate so much stuff that now this is going to be a major project, or wait years beyond what she should have (since her health is now bad) to divest of stuff and move. I know from my own experience the clutter is probably ADHD related, it's an inherited condition and I know I got it from her, but there's no way she'll ever take it seriously or get any help for it.

My only sibling, a half brother also has a personality disorder and will be no help. I'm really cracking up. Time to start thinking about what *I* need, which is the UNAVAILABLE sign someone posted above!!

(double post, sorry about that)

I just saw this thread & the parrot story. Holy Moly!

I suppose folk get bored, like to dream up wishes...

My relative once thought a little dog may be nice, a little company. The flying monkeys were sent out... 🙈 How could she get one? Where from? She would need YOU to buy it for her & pick it up.

Me: could she actually look after a dog? Feed, walk, wash, take it for regular shots?

🙈 Oh, she would need YOU to take it to the vets, maybe for YOU to come walk it a bit... groom it...& I suppose she could feed it... but maybe YOU would need to buy the dog food.

I struggled to comprehend the sheer lack of common sense, the complete lack of concern for the animal or the demands on my time/effort.

I re-phrased it back "So you want me to get a dog, be completely responsible for it but let it live with her?

(This was before I found the wisdom of the good folk here at the forum).

Now I see it as a flying monkey trying to bring what she wished for.

Just crazy 🤯 Like letting a 4yr old buy your weekly groceries: Chips! Icecream! 🍟🍧 Cookieeees 🍪🍪🍪🍪

Hellebore, sorry you’re having to deal with hoarding and your mother’s abusive behaviour and actions. I’m going through a similar situation at the moment. Mum has moved into supported living, having lived with us for over 10 years. Her bedroom and sitting room at our house are full of her things, and I’ve said I’ll take boxes of this stuff to her gradually, so she can sort stuff out at a sensible pace rather than all at once. I’m finding all sorts of useless rubbish, mixed in with her possessions: old papers, empty boxes, plastic bags, bits of string, the tops from pens, broken items, old keys from several house moves ago, and the list goes on...I’ve thrown out this obvious rubbish, and there’s a lot of other useless stuff she has held on to that she has probably forgotten about - I will box this all up, hold on to it for a few months and then probably get rid of it as I know she will otherwise just hoard it at her new place. I will focus on giving her the useful stuff first, including clothing and toiletries, but for most other stuff I will create a sorting system of: rubbish, donate, sell, keep. On top of this, she had complained bitterly for years when she first moved in with us that several box loads of stuff had been lost by the removal company. I found these boxes under her bed. They have never been opened. I think she shoved things under the bed and in drawers rather than dealing with anything. This would fit with my mother’s unwillingness to deal with any responsibilities in life. She would then go shopping on a daily basis to fill up her rooms with yet more stuff. I also found a cupboard full of photograph albums of her numerous holidays going back 40 years. There were no such albums of me or our family unit. My husband found many of these thrown out with the rubbish a few years ago, and managed to salvage some of them for me. I’ve also found some of my late stepfather’s items that my mother tells me he wanted to be given to his nephews. Instead, she has kept these items too, rather than carrying out his wishes. I suppose I’m telling you this partly to vent, but also to suggest that you try for your own sanity to adopt a “neutral” stance. Stay focused on the task and treat sorting out your mother’s stuff as a way of bringing order to chaos - for your benefit as much as for hers. I’m finding this approach is working for me.

Beatty, you are so right. It was all about satisfying your relative’s immediate “want”, rather than any wish to provide love and care for a pet. Once you are able to decode this behaviour in a narcissist, you can spot the signs sooner and not get dragged in to running around after them. When I dropped some stuff off for mum the other day, she invited me in. Current COVID restrictions do not allow me to visit her at the moment, as she well knows, so I have to drop things at the door for her to take inside. She was quite prepared to break the rules just to get me to carry the few small lightweight bags in for her, rather than do it herself. I refused because of the restrictions, but in the past I might have found myself drawn into doing this, having been conditioned to satisfy and appease all my life.

Hellebore, welcome to the forum.

So your mom threw your stuff out, see that just amazes me. I can't wrap my head around this type of behavior. I still have the Christmas ornament I got for my son's first Christmas and he is 36! Seriously I can't imagine having to unload my cluttered house and throwing away his things without asking, FIRST no less!

Narc mother's are truly damaged people who seriously hurt their own kids with zero remorse.

I'm sorry you are dealing with this, but now that your stuff is gone, if I were you I wouldn't lift a finger to help my mom declutter and get rid of her own stuff. She doesn't have dementia, so tell her to start packing or hire someone.

Yes it's not only okay, but healthy for you to be unavailable.

By the way, did you ask her WHY she threw your stuff away, and if so what was her response?

Chris, I'm glad that you are continuing to move things along in an orderly and detached fashion as far as clearing out your mom's stuff.

And good for you for leaving the supplies you took to your mom at the door. I fully understand the conditioning to please them that we've carried around all of our lives, but you are really breaking free and I am happy for you.

Thanks Piper. It's a slow job sorting everything out but I'm doing things at a sensible pace rather than wear myself out. This week mum needed to sign the paperwork for her new place - we had a Zoom meeting with the management. When they asked if I wanted to sign and put everything in my name, I said no, it would all be in hers. I don't want to be liable for her actions and she is perfectly capable of managing this. The house manager is therefore guiding her through the paperwork this weekend - I've just read through it to check there are no unpleasant surprises. I did need to set up a landline for her though, as this is part of the deal so she can have an emergency careline connected. But I could only start the process on that as the phone company needs to speak with her too, so I've had to ask if the house manager can help with this too. I've had no response on this so far. In the past I would have worried and worried about this, but now, as I'm not allowed to visit at the moment I've just passed it back so mum and they can sort it out between them. In that sense the Covid restrictions are a help to me as I cannot get sucked into these things at the moment. The point with all of this is that mum just sits there and expects everything to be done for her. She is not incapable - in fact she has already asked if I can download the bus timtables for her, so her mind is on going shopping, even though only essential shops are open at the moment, which she doesn't need as she is in a fully catered place. This is just another demonstration of how she has always been more interested in satisfying her wants rather than dealing with her responsibilities. If she was still living with us, now that she has had her first vaccine, it is highly likely she would have jumped on the bus for non essential trips, and in doing so could have exposed DH and I to Covid as we are as yet unprotected. At least I don't have to worry about that now. So yes, I am taking slow steps forward!

Thank you Chriscat and Piper! I really appreciate it - this place is such a help.

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only person who's dealing with an elder and her "stuff." Like a lot of people I have a lot of tangled up feelings so I'll try to get this in some kind of order.

For starters I know full blown actual narcisstic personality disorder is somewhat rare but I'll be damned if Mom doesn't have what I've read are some of the clinical symptoms. The ones that really seem to affect me are feeling that I am extension of her with no rights/feelings of my own, and manipulating to get her way. She's also extremely susceptible to praise and flattery to what I feel is an unhealthy degree and will go to great lengths to get it, such as doing an unpaid project that lasts months, etc. (despite her professional degree) which is one reason she hasn't saved any money for retirement.

I admit I'm using her having disposed of my things to take some time off. My spouse was laid off due to covid last summer and has had a difficult time finding another job. Our area is one of the highest most affected places for covid so none of us can easily go anywhere, spouse and I don't even go to the grocery store but opt to have things delivered. But Mom expects to call me EVERY day so she can vent for an hour about how difficult her own life is since she hasn't saved money and is going to have get to rid of a lot of things and move to a smaller place. Rarely are there questions about spouse or myself, just more that I'm expected to call and "hold her hand" since she's living alone. (She's 82 which scares me b/c she really is healthy as a horse for her age and I don't know what we're going to do if she lives well into her 90s but I just can't think about that right now. She does have trouble with a bad knee and has trouble walking but neither the hoarded home nor her financial trouble is new, and something should have been done about this a long time ago before it all became a crisis. But that's my mother for you.)

Honestly there's more, a lot more, but I think I'm dealing with a clinical situation and I really probably should get some professional help. Long story short I'm just really working on boundaries. Piper, you're right that any suggestion I might come over there and help her go through stuff pretty well went out the window when I realized she had gotten rid of so much of MY stuff (which I was storing over there because we were having sidewalk sales in her neighborhood for a while, but she knew I expected to come get it and sell it on eBay - some of the items were designer purses, bags, shoes, that kind of thing.) Meanwhile her own things appear nearly untouched and we're a year into the pandemic during which time she's been telling me she's been "decluttering."

I hadn't been over there for a long while b/c she had a water leak and was telling me things were in real disarray so I figured best not to visit - she came to stay with me for a couple of weeks in December so I could play nursemaid and help pay (!) while she had some eye surgery. Of course now that is all being twisted into something it isn't.

She actually claimed, when I said I'd have been glad to come get my stuff if I'd known it would be given away, that I "wouldn't have come because I hadn't been over there for so long." There's more, but my mother is much more manipulative than most people and her words sound almost unbelievable which again is why I do think I need to get some professional help. It does help to post here though when she does things such as try to get me to call her, send me messages, tell other people to get me to call her, that kind of thing. Like many narcissists who seek validation other people who know us both would never believe some things I could say about mom - she's so careful to always put up a false front to get the praise and flattery.

Mom has always been difficult but now that she's a senior and with covid casting a pall over everything it's like the self absorption has dialed up to a million. I just have to figure out how often I'm going to be willing to contact her and how that's going to go given that I don't believe anything I say or do with truly affect any change in the situation - Mom is just so focused on herself and her own needs. Luckily she does have a lot of acquaintances, tho not many I'd call true friends, but at least I know the burden of her chores and loneliness is not only on me.

Chris I'm so sorry to hear you believe your mom would expose your family to covid. It's so hard to deal with feeling like there's someone in your life who is so utterly self absorbed that nothing else seems to matter. At least we on this sub know we're not alone. <3

Hellebore7,

I've been told that our most dominant traits get exaggerated when we get older.

God bless all of that are caring for narcissistic parents!!

I'm so sorry that your Mom gave your things away!!

That's not ok!!

Thanks xray. The really disappointing thing is, I thought we were past some of this stuff. I've had issues with my mom doing inappropriately controlling and/or incredibly thoughtless things all my life. Sometimes if I have a fit and distance myself for a while I can get her to listen to me. But the book on true NPDs is, nothing you say or do is really going to change anything. I think I'm going to have to try a different approach.

As soon as I found out she'd removed my things I called spouse with our BIG pickup and got 98% of the rest of my stuff out of there. I'm going one day this week to make sure there's nothing else there I don't want given away. I don't *think* she'd give away artwork I did over the years but honestly I have no idea since I really don't know why my own things were the first and only items (so far that I've been able to determine) to be given away. She has *piles* of hoarded stuff that hadn't been touched.

But I need to not let this drive me crazy. As I was standing there taking in the loss I just started thinking over and over, "This is not normal." My only sibling, a half brother, has a cluster B personality disorder also (borderline) and I suspect that runs in families. My dad died 20 years ago and I miss him terribly since he was often the only person I had in my corner when mom/brother would do something horrible. At least my paternal uncle is still around, I think I'll call him tomorrow.

Hellebore, glad to hear you’ve managed to remove most of your stuff now. I’m hoping that might make you feel a little better, as you are now in control of what happens to your possessions. It’s awful that your mother disposed of some of your things - but it’s happened and it would be better for you if you tried to let that go now, as no amount of stressing about it will change that. It’s clear you are quite overwhelmed with everything. You mentioned your mother expects to call you and vent daily - that is unfair on you and too much. Can you be unavailable every other day, to start with, so these calls become half as frequent? And when you do have to speak to her, can you limit the call length before you get too wound up with the negativity? I do understand how you feel about the complete and utter self absorption. I would say I’ve felt complete disgust towards my mother about this. Now that I have put some distance between us I’ve noticed this feeling diminish a little. These types of people will never change but I know from personal experience that going over and over it in your mind, trying to make sense of it is a waste of your energy and bad for your health. I agree that getting some professional help would be a good thing. It will help you validate your own feelings and get you started with a few tools to deal with your mum’s behaviour. There is so much to deal with that it really does feel overwhelming, but if you can make a start with getting that help, I think it could really make a difference. It takes a lot of work but in my experience the amount you get out of it is down to how much you put in. Don’t tell your mother you are doing it - she is likely to rubbish it and undermine your efforts. Devote some time each day/week, whatever you can manage, to work on this. When I got started on counselling and CBT I felt I was a self indulgent impostor, as my mother’s conditioning made me feel I was unworthy of help and that my feelings were irrelevant. Getting help showed me I mattered, my feelings mattered and I had a right to my own life, free of my mother’s manipulation and control. And as far as your mother’s hoarding goes, why have the battle? If she really can’t bring herself to part with any of her things, that’s her problem, not yours. You’re getting stressed about it as you’ve been conditioned to solve all of her problems. You don’t have to live amongst that mess but if she wants to, fine. If not, she can hire someone to clear it for her.

Thank you Chriscat, I agree. I'm just not going to do this any more. Mom is not incapacitated. There are other people in her life she can call to complain to. Just now she sent me a message to the effect that she needs to borrow something of mine to complete a household task. You know what? Call somebody else.

I was already depressed over this long before covid honestly (another factor: Mom has an elderly sister who's easily just as manipulative if not more so than Mom herself, both of them expect me to sit for hours and listen to their problems.) Now that we're going on months with spouse out of a job and no end in sight for economic improvement or even being able to go out to the movies, I'm getting a little worried about myself mentally. I should have called to find a therapist today but I sort of don't know where to start to find a counselor who can help with something like this. Maybe my local council on aging could help. (Sounds like you may be in the UK, here in the US a council on aging just means a local group which is funded by government and charity which helps the public find resources for older people.)

>>You’re getting stressed about it as you’ve been conditioned to solve all of her

>>problems. You don’t have to live amongst that mess but if she wants to, fine. If

>>not, she can hire someone to clear it for her.

You're so right. Part of the issue is she keeps pleading poverty and telling me how poor she is - probably so I'll pay for the people to clean it out and/or come over there to clean it out myself. But it simply is not my fault that she retired at 52, failed to save money or make any plans at all other than counting on me to work at her care full time. Luckily I figured out how manipulative Mom can be a long time ago so I'm probably not as susceptible to it as some people might be, but it isn't what I'd call enjoyable.

The hardest thing, overall is probably pushback from other people who don't see her manipulativeness and want to give me a hard time for being the unreasonable bad daughter after Mom calls to whine to *them.* I have yet to think of a good 'comeback' line for that - have any good suggestions?