Why are DNR's not banned and why is there still talk about legalizing euthanasia?

No I don't want to argue. I am simply attempting to point out that the patient in a case like this has made a decision and it should be respected. You don't have to like it. But to go back to the old ways, in my opinion, is being cruel to the person.
Why should I be compelled to exist in as a vegetable because someone else thinks I should lay in bed and look like a science experiment for a sci-fi movie. If my heart stops let me go. That was my Dad's decision and it was respected. He knew the end was near and wanted heroic efforts to extend his life. Personally I knew he wanted to live about two more weeks so he could pass on the same day as Mother did. He was tired of moving from one facility to another so he could comply with insurance.
Do as you wish but don't try to change my wishes.

No one is going to convince anyone to change their minds and see the other point of view when it comes to this subject. It is useless to argue unless that's what you want to do.

We are talking about a healthy person killed before his time, your scenario is not germane.

Try this on for size. You have a disease that is going to kill you some day. You have been bed ridden for over ten years. You have no ability to do anything. You can't control your bowels or bladder. You cannot eat. You cannot swallow. You have a breathing contraption helping you breathe. You have a food tube inserted into your stomach. You have not tasted food for years. Your husband and oldest son have passed away while you have been in bed. Your oldest child living within 200 miles with two young children and the youngest living over 300 miles away. None of your old friends have ever visited you. You are hooked up to more machines than a science fiction movie. If you need help, you have to try and blow into a tube stuck into your mouth 24/7. You get fifty dollars a month for personal item, such a bath soap and you get bathed once a week. You cannot change the channel on the tv and you have a room mate.
You were told that you would only live for five years after diagnosis, and that was nearly fifteen years ago.
Oh and to communicate you have the use of only one eye to answer yes or no.
How long would you want to live/exist like that?
Now what was that about a DNR?

Those of you who love to argue against me, for whatever reason, using BS arguments, cannot argue these points:

1. The cardiologist said "I guess the hospital needed the bed" which means only one thing.

2. They were giving him morphine, which is a pain killer, when he wasn't in pain, and even when he was asleep. There is only one possible reason to give morphine to somebody who is not in pain, and that is to kill him. I'm sure this is widely done.

3. He got better without medical treatment, after I told the hospital to stop giving him morphine, which means he wasn't dying, just being killed.

OK, let's hear some BS arguments against that. All your arguments so far have been BS, keep 'em coming.

Dear Jeangibbs,

"My husband had a DNR on file (along with a complete healthcare directive) all the while he had dementia. He was hospitalized three times in those ten years, and he lived through all three of them."

Right, and you were probably the healthcare proxy, and didn't want him to die. The first 2 or 3 times my father went to the hospital, my mother was healthcare proxy and my father was given good medical care. This was the first and only time my father went to the hospital after my mother died and my greedy siblings were healthcare proxy and calling for DNR all the time. So he died of morphine and sedatives which induced shock which induced pneumonia.

Dear Midkid 158,

"One last note:
You gave your father eye drops which are decongestants. Do you carry those with you all the time?"

Phenylephrine is a synthetic form of epinephrine, it is a sympathomimetic, same as epinephrine. It is a beta stimulant, opposite of a beta blocker. It stimulates the sympathetic system and if administered to people in shock, brings them out of it, just like epinephrine. Once again, you know nothing if you don't know that. Decongestant? Maybe. We use it to dilate pupils and yes I carry it in my bag all the time.

"I think you're ranting from pain and maybe from guilt, as you didn't seem to be that close to your dad, and his death caught you by surprise."

Yes his murder caught me by surprise, I had no idea my siblings would do that to their father.

"I am surprised you weren't forcibly removed from the hospital when you started yelling at people and treating your father alone."

I never yelled at anybody I just told them to stop giving him morphine and sedatives, and to stop starving him. Other than the phenylephrine, I didn't treat him at all, just told them to stop euthanizing him. I told you, I didn't take over his medical care, I took over from my brothers who were killing him with their "DNR, DNR he's got a DNR" garbage.

MDWrig, Obamakill? What does a political conspiracy list of terrorist have to do with DNR?

One last note:
You gave your father eye drops which are decongestants. Do you carry those with you all the time?
A gish gallop is proof by verbosity. You kinda have that going on here, too.

Um, MD wrig--

You have had 4 years of optometry school. Yes, you have a OD. NOT an MD. My kids have 4 years of Medical School, and 7, yes 7+ years of post Med School training. My BIL is an optometrist. BUT, he would NEVER and I mean NEVER pull the stunts you did in the hospital. I am surprised you weren't forcibly removed from the hospital when you started yelling at people and treating your father alone.

Optometrists can only prescribe a very select range of medications. I'm sorry, but no way do you have the experience to state all the things you're saying. I'm not saying you're not educated, you seem to be very offended by that--but, as has been said over and over on these boards--we KNOW our loved ones are going to die. We ALL will. Like I said, you bought you father a couple of days. I'm sorry he died. You'd be better off trying to grieve and deal with the loss than terrifying people about something it is their RIGHT to have. A DNR. Hospice. Palliative Care.

I think you're ranting from pain and maybe from guilt, as you didn't seem to be that close to your dad, and his death caught you by surprise.

You don't need to tear into me again--I'm not returning to this pointless post, I suggest we all do, as the OP is gone..this post is 6 years old!!!

Your understanding of optometry is wrong. Medical school and optometry school are both 4 years after college, and the course of study is almost identical, usually taught by the same teachers, with the same textbooks, and then there is residency. All OD and MD's diagnose and treat. Only surgeons perform surgery. Why would you post your "understanding" when you can just look it up?

Your understanding of what happens to many elderly with DNR's under Obamakill is probably good, but you are covering it up because it's illegal, and you don't want to go to jail. If you are a nurse or other caregiver, you absolutely must know that many elderly are deliberately killed in hospitals, rehab centers, and hospices, just like Flowgo's mother, my father, and some others on this thread. Telling me to go away won't make the problem go away. Stop killing healthy people.

It's my understanding that an optometrist is an OD, with a few years of extra grad school, licensing to do things such as eye exams. An opthamologist is an MD, with several years of grad school, licensing to perform surgery, diagnose and treat. Seems like a big difference to me. If you have such a problem with DNR's and elderly people, chat with nurses who have had elderly patients who were full code (as opposed to DNR) about the horrors of doing everything possible to these frail bodies.

This is the kind of blatant falsehood I object to:
"I'm here to warn others that DNR means you are going to die."

My husband had a DNR on file (along with a complete healthcare directive) all the while he had dementia. He was hospitalized three times in those ten years, and he lived through all three of them.

Of course he did die, eventually. So will I. So will you. Being born means you are doing to die.

I do mean to be rude. Please go away. Making decisions for loved ones is hard enough without falsehoods parading as legitimate concerns because they come from a "doctor."

Please go away.

Many people know the term “DNR”, but do not realize that it is only talking about interventions when you have stopped breathing or your heart has stopped. The limited nature of the DNR makes it very important to sign a health care proxy and a living will in advance so that your wishes can be known and your care can be entrusted to the person you choose to act on your behalf.

"jeannegibbs
18 minutes ago
"I'm thinking of bringing up murder charges now. What a great idea."

Please do this. And leave us alone."

Yeah, I see why Flowgo abandoned this board.

"MDwright---I don't mean to be rude, but your writing and "charting" of the events do not remotely sound like an MD. I guess I am calling you out--you're saying you're a dr., but you do NOT speak like one at all."

I'm an optometrist. We don't work in hospitals but we know everything about anatomy and physiology, and pharmacology that MD's, dentists, podiatrists, and osteopaths do.

"I can say this b/c 2 of my kids ARE board certified doctors with many years of training. When they "talk medicine" they speak in completely different terms...your posts just don't ring true. Sorry, I'm not buying it."

Oooh, they are board certified. As opposed to doctors who flunked their boards, you mean? I'm impressed.

"I am sorry for your loss, but, people die. My grandmother was reading an 800 page book the day before she died. That doesn't mean anything."

Right. I know somebody who was texting and driving when she died. I see your point.

"And, you don't "catch pneumonia" from the hospital. Pneumonia is a secondary illness, either caused by an URI or aspiration of food or water. Very rarely does it just "present" itself. In elderly people, it is often fatal. If you were really a dr you'd know that."

I know all that, and nothing I said showed in the slightest that I didn't. He "caught" pneumonia from the hospital in that the hospital induced his shock which caused the aspiration which caused the pneumonia.

"Nobody wants to lose a loved one, but hassling people on this site and this fighting about DNR's and bashing your relatives doesn't help anybody."

Nonsense. YOU are hassling ME.  I'm here to warn others that DNR means you are going to die.

"If you were a Dr. why didn't your dad make YOU his healthcare proxy?"

I live too far away.

"I am sorry for your pain and anger. You bought your dad a couple of days, maybe."

Ridiculous. I saved him from dying of shock, but he died of something else, caused by the shock, but he never would have gotten EITHER if there were no DNR order. I saved him from cardiogenic shock, if he didn't get pneumonia, he'd be alive today......with a-fib, which is nothing.

"If that makes you feel better, good. Your dad's drs and your sibs didn't kill him."

If that makes you feel better to say, good. But you're wrong.

"I'm thinking of bringing up murder charges now. What a great idea."

Please do this. And leave us alone.

Next, Midkid58's gish gallop

"MDWrig,
Do you have a Medical Doctors license or a PhD? The way you explain things is not that of a medical physician."

I'm an optometrist. We don't work in hospitals but we know pretty much everything MD's know about anatomy and physiology, and pharmacology.

"I've been a nurse for 39 years. I worked in hospitals 27 of those years. I have NEVER seen a patients' family member, even if they were a doctor, "take over" care of the patient."

I took over from my siblings. I stopped them from barking DNR DNR at all the nurses, prompting them to provide medical care instead of letting him die, as directed by my other 3 siblings.

"I've seen new doctors be assigned and old doctors be dismissed, I've seen patients leave AMA (against medical advise) but no other doctor has the authority (let alone the guts) to take over another doctors patient.
Sorry, I'm not buying that one."

What doctors? The hospitalist came in once a day, for about 5 minutes, and the cardiologist only came in twice, once on July 4 and once around July 6, but he never came back when he saw the DNR order to die.

"You would have to have standing privileges at that particular hospital to even see a patient there, let alone wrote orders."

The phenylephrine eyedrop I snuck in when nobody was looking. Don't tell anybody.

"It is well known that staff DON'T prescribe and write orders for family members. It hits too close to home. Thinking and judgement can be clouded by emotions and anxiety for the family member."

They sure as heck do when it comes to DNR. They might not take medical orders from patients family members, but they sure take DNR orders from them. Give him more morphine? Coming right up. Take out the sugar? No problem. We need the bed.

"So you're telling us you just took over and NONE of the MD's minded? What about hospital administration? The nurses let you do what you wanted?"

There were no doctors, as I said. Administration? Never saw them. The nurses only came around to give morphine and I told them to stop.

"Dextrose ("sugar" as you call it)"

I call it sugar because it is. If this is a question for you, then you know nothing. Dextrose is glucose, which is blood sugar.

".... is not even an issue unless the patient is severely hypoglycemic (low blood sugar). Many IV's are just saline solutions. If dextrose is added, it's at 5%. The addition of dextrose, if true, did not save his life."

This tells me that you know nothing. When patients aren't eating, they require glucose (Dextrose, as you call it) to survive, or they starve to death. Unbelievable that you don't know this.

"Your casual attitude about A-fib is a bit disturbing also."

Why? Many people live with a-fib for decades and don't even know they have it. Disturbing?

"A DNR (Do Not Resusitate order) does not have anything to do with giving Morphine. As Barb said, it's about chest compressions, artificial respiration and medications."

Again, the difference between what a DNR is supposed to mean, and what it really means e.g. how it's being used the euthanize people. The entire subject of this thread!!

"A POLST form goes into greater detail of the patient's wishes."

Those wishes only apply when they patient has a terminal illness. If he doesn't, it's murder.

"As you would know, Morphine is a narcotic (pain killer). If he was receiving it, it was probably being used to calm the respirations instead of pain relief."

It was being used to kill him. There was nothing wrong with his respiration.

"He would have been struggling to breathe with the pneumonia. Not all pneumonia can be cured (as you would know)."

That came 2 weeks later. He got pneumonia July 16 and died on July 17, he went to the hospital July 3. They gave him morphine starting July 4, for no reason but to kill him. I stopped them July 6. It took a week for him to recover from cardiogenic shock.

"You stepped in, ordered everything to be changed and 100% cured your father......but he died 2 (or6) days later. Can you not see the contradiction in that?"

No, I just see that you can't read. He went in with a-fib, was induced into SHOCK by medications, I ordered that stopped, and he slowly came out of shock until July 16 he was better, then he died FROM PNEUMONIA. You make it sound like he went in with one thing, everybody tried to cure it but failed, I reversed it, and then he died 2 days later from it. You see there are 3 different things going on here?

"IF this happened, your actions just bought him an extra couple of days."

Nonsense

"I'm not trying to "rub your nose" in your misconceptions but your story is full of holes.
Your father was a sick man and he was sicker longer than 2 (or6) days. As you know, you don't contract pneumonia and die of it 2 days later."

Garbage, my father had a-fib and nothing else. He was iatrogenically put into cardiogenic shock and starvation for a few days, and became "a sick man" FROM THAT, not from the a-fib, and he died from a third thing. He got the pneumonia when he aspirated the saliva during shock which happened on July 6. July 6 to 16 is 10 days not 2.

"I'm sorry your father passed away. It's always too early for any family to die in the eyes of their loved ones."

Nonsense. I have no problem when people die naturally, I only have a problem when they are murdered.

"But you need to let it go now for your fathers sake. It was God's timing."

Really, somebody was murdered and you call it God's timing? My father was murdered, and I need to let it go for his sake? Wow, that's a new form of justice.

"Let him rest peacefully without charges of murder being flung everywhere."

You know what? I'm thinking of bringing up murder charges now. What a great idea.

If you don't normally answer gish gallops, please to not go to any bother for us. I think your credibility here is shot.

SueC1957, you asked me about 25 questions and everything you said is wrong. There is no way on this forum to answer all 25 points, but I will tell you this: Making 25 statements/questions, right or wrong, but mostly wrong, to blind the other person because they can't possibly answer all points as fast as they come, in an attempt to discredit the person and win, is known as a "gish gallop".

Midkid58, you did the same thing.

I don't nomally answer gish gallops but I will attempt to answer all your points but it will take a long time.

Next post, SueC1957

MDwright---

I don't mean to be rude, but your writing and "charting" of the events do not remotely sound like an MD. I guess I am calling you out--you're saying you're a dr., but you do NOT speak like one at all.

I can say this b/c 2 of my kids ARE board certified doctors with many years of training. When they "talk medicine" they speak in completely different terms...your posts just don't ring true. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

I am sorry for your loss, but, people die. My grandmother was reading an 800 page book the day before she died. That doesn't mean anything.

And, you don't "catch pneumonia" from the hospital. Pneumonia is a secondary illness, either caused by an URI or aspiration of food or water. Very rarely does it just "present" itself. In elderly people, it is often fatal. If you were really a dr you'd know that.

Nobody wants to lose a loved one, but hassling people on this site and this fighting about DNR's and bashing your relatives doesn't help anybody.

If you were a Dr. why didn't your dad make YOU his healthcare proxy?

I am sorry for your pain and anger. You bought your dad a couple of days, maybe. If that makes you feel better, good. Your dad's drs and your sibs didn't kill him.

MDWrig,
Do you have a Medical Doctors license or a PhD? The way you explain things is not that of a medical physician.

I've been a nurse for 39 years. I worked in hospitals 27 of those years. I have NEVER seen a patients' family member, even if they were a doctor, "take over" care of the patient. I've seen new doctors be assigned and old doctors be dismissed, I've seen patients leave AMA (against medical advise) but no other doctor has the authority (let alone the guts) to take over another doctors patient.
Sorry, I'm not buying that one.

You would have to have standing privileges at that particular hospital to even see a patient there, let alone wrote orders.
It is well known that staff DON'T prescribe and write orders for family members. It hits too close to home. Thinking and judgement can be clouded by emotions and anxiety for the family member.

So you're telling us you just took over and NONE of the MD's minded? What about hospital administration? The nurses let you do what you wanted?

Dextrose ("sugar" as you call it) is not even an issue unless the patient is severely hypoglycemic (low blood sugar). Many IV's are just saline solutions. If dextrose is added, it's at 5%. The addition of dextrose, if true, did not save his life.

Your casual attitude about A-fib is a bit disturbing also.

A DNR (Do Not Resusitate order) does not have anything to do with giving Morphine. As Barb said, it's about chest compressions, artificial respiration and medications. A POLST form goes into greater detail of the patient's wishes.

As you would know, Morphine is a narcotic (pain killer). If he was receiving it, it was probably being used to calm the respirations instead of pain relief. He would have been struggling to breathe with the pneumonia. Not all pneumonia can be cured (as you would know).

You stepped in, ordered everything to be changed and 100% cured your father......but he died 2 (or6) days later. Can you not see the contradiction in that? IF this happened, your actions just bought him an extra couple of days.

I'm not trying to "rub your nose" in your misconceptions but your story is full of holes.
Your father was a sick man and he was sicker longer than 2 (or6) days. As you know, you don't contract pneumonia and die of it 2 days later.

I'm sorry your father passed away. It's always too early for any family to die in the eyes of their loved ones. But you need to let it go now for your fathers sake. It was God's timing. Let him rest peacefully without charges of murder being flung everywhere.

MDWrig, glad that your Dad started to do better with your recommendations. Just curious, do you have Courtesy Privileges to treat patients at the hospital where your Dad was staying. Why I asked, you wrote that "I had the nurses", etc. I realize this isn't important to the original subject of this thread, but it would help clear up some confusion.

Oh by the way, private patient information is called HIPAA, not HIPPA. You must see those forms regularly being an ophthalmologist or a doctor of osteopathic medicine.

Oh yeah, when I saw he was in shock I gave him a drop of phenylephrine in his eye which saved his life. (I'm an eye doctor, beta stimulants get into the bloodstream instantly through the eye.) My brother got mad at me for saving him. Still hates me for it, not that I care.

On July 2 my father sent out an email to all his kids (5 of us) that his dog was howling, and that in the 5 years he had that dog, she never howled, only barked. He took this as an omen that he would die soon. He called it a "gypsy death pest" or something, and said "animals know more than we do. She was howling because I'm going to die."

On July 3, he called me to say he was worried about the omen, can I come stay with him a few days to make sure he was ok. So I went there on July 3, he was fine. We watched Jeopardy at 7, he got all the answers as usual. There was nothing wrong with him, obviously. July 3 almost midnight, he called me on his cell phone because I was downstairs, and said "I think this is it, I have pains on the whole left side of my body, call 911" I thought it was a stroke, which is what I told 911. ER came and ran some tests in the living room, said there was no stroke, he had a-fib.

July 3 midnight all night until July 4 morning, they did chest x ray twice, echo with die, stress test, EKG, all the tests for about 10 hours. When they were done they could not give Dx until the cardiologists showed, he was on "staycation" in town, but everybody knew the chest pains were indigestion and the afib came and went. At the time there was nothing wrong.

I went home and got the 5 Ann Taylor books and his hearing aid. I visited him 4 or 5 times that day but he told me to leave so he could read. And he watched a lot of TV, mostly Fox News. That evening the doctor finally showed up. Dad's blood pressure was always low, he had been taking salt to raise his blood pressure. 1/2 teaspoon per day. That meant that it was difficult to control the a-fib because those drugs lower the blood pressure, and his was already too low. The doctor said if we give him beta blockers to control the a-fib, his pressure would be dangerously low and he might go into shock. Cardiogenic shock is a serious thing, people usually die from it. Anyway, I went home when visiting hours were over.

9 PM one brother called from Cape Cod, said "Dad went to the hospital to die, he will be dead soon." Made no sense. I told him he was wrong and he hung up on me. Next morning, the local brother with the proxy went in and signed the DNR. That's when they started pumping him with drugs and morphine, and beta blockers which put him into shock. The proxy brother told me "He's not taking any visitors, you have to leave."

Next day I went in, his BP was 39/25 and heart rate was 10 per minute. Brother and sister were like Johnny Cash when he shot a man in Reno just to watch him die. No ICU, no nothing. Nobody bothered to diagnose that he was in cardiogenic shock, they just said "he's dying." Just laying there dying, with no nurses or doctors anywhere. There was no sugar in his IV, just saline. I caught them in the act of murder. I had the nurses put sugar in the IV and stop all the drugs, I took over everything because I'm a doctor, about 6 days later he was fine.

I'm still angry with siblings whose attitude to my mother I vehemently disagreed with, too. As it happens.

Hang on I've missed something - so, MDW, you took your Dad to the hospital, for why? And then once he was admitted your brother's healthcare proxy kicked in? Did your brother actually turn up to the hospital?

I've read this thread.

I did not say that my father had no respiratory problems. He had what I suppose is now called COPD. But he had no diagnosis of lung cancer until an oncologist examined him when he failed to recover as expected from prostate surgery. He did, in fact, die four days after entering the hospital. His death certificate says lung cancer.

Why are you so angry, MDWright? Why are you lashing out at caregivers on this thread? What do you hope to accomplish by your participation here?

It's because he lived only 15 miles away. The rest of us lived hundreds of miles away. My parents didn't want to inconvenience their kids. Dysfunctional what? Huh? Can't figure out your logic in this one. Not even remotely.

I don't know what aspirational pheumonia is? Huh? You got that from my posts? Even though I explained to another poster what it was? Oh, because I asked freqflyer why his or her father could not swallow, that means I don't understand what causes swallowing problems in general. I see.

My father had afib, that's what all the nurses said, and the doctors, including myself, since I'm a doctor, and I reviewed all his tests. That's even what the ER people said before he left the house.

Your father went to the hospital for routine prostate surgery and died of lung cancer 4 days later? No..........................freaking.................way. People with lung cancer have symptoms years before they die. 4 days? And you believed them? There is no way your father's urologist would have missed a case of lung cancer 4 days pre-mortem.

No, I could not obtain his final medical records, due to HIPPA, but I was able to read his daily printout almost every day from the hospitalist. The meds he was on, vitals, etc. He didn't have to show them to me since I wasn't his doctor, or his medical proxy, but he did.

What DOES a DNR have to do with morphine? That seems to be the million dollar question. Go back and read this thread, please, and don't comment again until you do.

MDWright, I wonder why your father chose your brother to be his healthcare proxy? That is a serious question, not sarcasm, in case you can't tell. Did he not realize this man's greed? Because your family was dysfunctional (by your description) and misused the DNR (again, by your description) you generalize from that that no one should ever be able to use a DNR? Whoaaa. That dog don't hunt.

Your father died of "of pneumonia he picked up in the hospital." Bacterial? Virus? Was it aspirational pneumonia? If you don't know what aspirational pneumonia is, or what causes swallowing problems, maybe it would help you understand what happened to your father if you learned a little more.

You say your father "just" had a-fib. And you know that how?

My father went in the hospital for routine prostate surgery. It went well, but he wasn't recovering as he should be. Many specialists were consulted. An oncologist came into his room and told the family that Dad had lung cancer. Its location made him not a candidate for surgery or radiation. He said Dad had 3 to 5 days to live. Dad died on the fourth day.

It really didn't matter how many books dad could read before he went in. It didn't matter what drugs they gave him, or what papers he signed. It certainly didn't matter what our attitudes toward were. He had a condition in his body that had developed to the point where it was fatal. No one knew that before this hospitalization. He would have died whether he'd had the prostate surgery or not, whether he ever felt bad enough to go to the hospital or not.

A-fib may have been the immediate cause of why he needed to go to the hospital. But that doesn't mean it was the only problem at work in your father's body.

Have you obtained and read his medical records? Have you asked a medical professional to go over them with you? Because I think there is a very good chance you do not have all the facts or that you don't understand them. And it may help you find peace if you had a clearer understanding of what happened, step-by-step.

(What does a DNR have to do with giving someone morphine? Isn't it about pounding on someone's chest?)