Is a diagnosis of dementia ever a legal defense?
My mom went out of town about 6 weeks ago, and while she was out of town she got a DUI. Nobody got hurt, she only drove a couple blocks, but she hit a car she didn't see (minor damage), and when she didn't stop the other driver called the cops. This resulted in a DUI. She also refused the mandatory blood test, so her license is to be suspended in two weeks because of that for a minimum of a year.
Some of you may recall the ongoing nightmare I have been through with my mom and her driving. I was literally left with no choice but to wait for a crisis. Well, here we are.
My mom is coming back home Friday. As of now, she hasn't given me permission to talk to her lawyer, but she did give my brother permission, and my brother informed the lawyer that she has dementia.
It's too early to know what kind of penalty she will receive. She is fully aware that in two weeks she will no longer have a license, and she told me she will comply (she has no choice as this will be a criminal suspension).
Anyone else ever deal with something like this?
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So in that regard this is a good thing. She can't blame me this time for attempting to take away her driving.
I just don't know what to expect in terms of any other penalties. For example she "left the scene" but according to her she didn't know she hit anything, and her driveway was right down the road. My brother told me that her lawyer did want a copy of her medical report showing her diagnosis. He won't be fighting for her to get her license back, the lawyer is aware that us (the adult kids) do not want her driving and like you said she shouldn't be driving period.
I just don't know what else to expect.
Where it could be a defense is in case of shoplifting, if seniors are bussed by their Board and Care of ALF to shopping center. And even that would likely be through "forgiveness" and the lack of the store pursuing charges.
It is time for the POA to take more active role for Mom now, it would seem, if she will allow it; if not, guardianship might be in the future. Good luck.
My brother's accident was the beginning of his diagnosis. Prior to that we thought there were only balance issues. He was only so thankful he had not injured anyone by his not knowing what was going on with his brain. I hope that's the case with your Mom. He was more than willing to give up driving.
I have no idea how the DA will penalize her, and as much as I hated waiting for the crisis I never expected that my 75 year old mother would get a DUI.
I cant imagine that dementia is a defense against a DUI. It might mitigate an order to attend AA meetings, say.
But this should be a wake up call to the court system that mom may need a guardian or at the least that she can no longer live alone.
I would ask your brother to press mom's lawyer to refer her case to whatever court handles guardianship in her jurisdiction.
I would also supply the court with the documentation that you've got on how your mom managed to get around her doctor's suspension of her Florida license and her getting a license in PA.
I have a durable POA, do you think the criminal charges will trigger something in regards to guardianship?
So you remember how she got around the Florida revocation! Quite crafty on her end and you might recall she won that legal battle! This is one she can't win. In fact I didn't even find out about it until she already knew she didn't have a leg to stand on. When she went to PA to visit, there were no plans to sell her cottage or her car, it was just to be a visit.
Next thing I know she tells me she got a DUI, she put the cottage on the market, and sold her car up there. I find out all of that in one conversation. My sister who had been there visiting the week before had no clue. My brother had no clue. My mom kept it all to herself.
So when she comes back to Florida tomorrow, that's it. She's never going to the cottage again. In fact there is already a buyer.
BTW- I'm VERY relieved nobody got hurt. These seniors that refuse to give up driving are ticking time bombs!
I haven't done any criminal work, or interpretation, in years, and couldn't say whether dementia is a defense w/o doing legal research. What I would do though is plan to appear in court with your mother (even if she doesn't want you there).
If her lawyer isn't a criminal lawyer, it's much better to get one. Law is so segmented by practice area that someone who's not in that field isn't going to be current on practice as well as legal precedents, penalties, etc.
You or your brother can ask for a court-appointed attorney (assuming that she's unable to afford an attorney of her own, or wouldn't agree to consider hiring one with a practice specific to criminal law). At least that way she has some level of protection.
I think dementia would be an explanation only, as to how the situation arose. And I'm pretty sure her ability to drive would be legally rescinded, likely permanently, unless she gets substance abuse counseling, and/or a doctor can certify to her ability to drive despite the dementia.
If this is the first offense, and depending on the hearing judge, she may just get off with a reprimand and revoked license, as well as mandatory alcoholic addiction counseling.
This is where an experienced criminal attorney could help mitigate a worse outcome.
Good luck; I hope this event has a side effect of bringing your mother closer to you and your concerns, and give up driving for her sake as well as that of her family.
My father went through the no more driving situation, and given his independence, it wasn't easy. So I tried to plan supportive happy events whenever I took him somewhere...little surprises, like stopping at his favorite restaurant, or getting a Dairy Queen (a treat for both of us), or visiting a friend, or putting a favorite CD on after we returned, to divert his attention.
Walks in the neighborhood also were a diversion, especially if we met other walkers, and even more especially if they were walking their dogs. I also tried to get neighbors to bring their dogs over to visit him.
So far she has only had the preliminary hearing. My brother was supposed to go and then at the last minute he changed his mind telling me that he didn't need to be there. I was so angry, but then my mom said "everything went okay" and it only took five minutes. She will have to return to PA for sentencing (that is my understanding so far) and I won't be counting on my brother that time. I will go or my sister will go.
I'm not looking forward to being her driver but I will do it. My mom can be really difficult and demanding, so how she takes to getting used to things will depend a lot on her. In the last couple years I've had to work hard to maintain boundaries and we've made progress. This will be an extension of that, so hopefully it goes okay. It sounds like you did pretty well with your dad. I hope I can too.
You also observe above that Mom was given a "DUI" but may not have done the tests. Refused blood test and I don't know about breathalizer. She may have been diagnosed as DUI because of her answers, which may have been a result of dementia. But that alone is enough to have license taken. I myself would be honest as to no more driving again, and would go for the Senior ID with her and release the license to drive. Your Mom has been diagnosed?
Are you thinking she may be needing more care now? Is she still living alone?
I am so relieved to hear that her POA is in place and you are on the spot. Wishing you so much luck.
In PA both tests are given. If either is refused then it's a mandatory suspension of one year.
She was diagnosed almost 2 years ago. She lives next to me in my condo building. She gets a lot of supervision, and there is a lot of back and forth between our two condos but I don't live with her. She can still do her own ADLs and she keeps her place clean, still pays her own bills (it just takes forever).
I think we're okay, for now. (I hope)
Since there was minor damage the fine may not be too bad. First time DUIs are usually not as bad. Bring Dementia into it and maybe the Judge will be lenient and she will just get a fine, has to pay for the damage if insurance doesn't and her license revolked for good. Laws need to change and doctors made accountable when they don't report a Dementia patient to the DMV. License should be taken away upon diagnoses. Because, by the time they are diagnosed they are pretty much into the Dementia.
We had a Cop in town whose Mom suffered from ALZ and he was told he couldn't take her license away until there was an accident and ALZ was found to be the cause. By that time she could have killed someone.
As said, get rid of the car. If there is a POA a diagnoses that Mom can no longer make informed decisions will put the POA in effect. Its no longer what she wants but what she needs. The POA can then sell the car for Market Value if u think Mom will need Medicaid within five years. In the meantime, store it somewhere else. Out of sight, out of mind.
This DUI is going to be costly. I bet it's 10K when all is said and done. At least it gets her off the road FINALLY. I agree with you JoAnn, I think a dementia diagnosis should be a nationwide permanent driving ban. An innocent life trumps the old person's desire to remain "independent". I'm not happy she went through the DUI, I know it was very upsetting, but I am very glad she will be off the road.
I have no idea about the guardianship thing. I think you need to talk to her lawyer about how to get her what she NEEDS.
Is she selling the cottage at FMV? Not doing so has implications for Medicaid.
Yes, the cottage is being sold for FMV. One day after the real estate agent listed it two people made offers. I'll be glad to have the cottage sold. It was too risky for her to be there and one less thing to worry about. Plus that money needs to be earmarked for her care.
I feel like things just accelerated, but to what I don't know.
Please allow her the dignity of taking cabs.
A friend of mine told me she used Uber for her dad and it worked well. She used the app on her phone, he didn't need to do it. I just worry about safety.
I have wondered how others handle this?
I learned when I had cataract surgery that some ambulance companies have nonemergency transit. This is what I used for follow-up after surgery.
They're not cheap; most point to point transit services aren't. But the local transit company does have small vans, wheelchair equipped, that are reasonable. A year or so ago it was a nominal cost, something like $1.00, for transit one way.
Personally, I would consider these before Uber. I've read of too many issues arising from private service, either to passengers or drivers. I consulted cab companies; they're expensive, and you have no guarantee that the drivers have experience with older people.
Okaloosa County Transit, (850) 833-9168
http://www.ecrider.org/routes/
Something else I've considered is hiring a companion aid that could do some driving, for things like getting nails done or some shopping. I actually thought about a companion even before this because my mom doesn't have any friends here, but I didn't know how to approach the subject of paying for a friend. This could be framed as paying a person to drive. It seems less insulting.
& perhaps before she gets you to be Piper the Chauffeur 24/7, call around to see if there is a Lyft or Uber driver who is known for being elder friendly and do a drive with them to discuss that possibility. Or if there’s a senior friendly transportation service that specializes in this.
I’m assuming that you really don’t want to blithely be her on call chauffeur. The Area on Aging for your area probably has a list of day programs that include outings in their activities. I’d suggest that you try to get her on a twice a week day program and let thier shopping outing be how she gets most of her retail therapy & shopping done. & get set up to order online & get it delivered to you at your condo. I think that if the anticipated 2nd wave of Covid hits in Nov& Dec, Jan, you’ll be really glad to have online deliver services already set up and relationships with Uber in place.
Your mother's licence will be taken away. She has been thoroughly shaken and (believe this when you see it, but let's hope anyway) she has agreed to comply. And nobody got hurt.
I'd call that a very fortunate outcome, all round. I suppose it's possible that the court *could* try to make an example of her, but if she is meek and remorseful I can't imagine why they would.
Do NOT give her a hard time about this. Save your breath for when she gets over the shock and decides she'll be fine if she only goes out in daylight and it's not too far...
You are making excuses for not selling mom's car now. She isn't ready yet? Makes no matter, if it is available she will drive it. Next time she may not be so lucky as to not hurt someone or herself. You are POA and it is your responsibility to keep mom and others safe by taking care of the car situation. If mom says she is willing to stop driving, tomorrow she may not remember she said that. Then what?
Sorry if this seems harsh, but the time has come for you to take more responsibility for mom.
My mom has dementia, but she has not been deemed incompetent to make decisions by any doctor, yet, so what do you think I can force just because I have a POA?
My mom's car is in her name, and I have no legal right to sell it without her permission. Not sure why you are saying I'm making excuses. It's not my decision. Again, my mom has not been deemed incompetent, she still has rights.
Same for any detox or rehab. I'm not responsible for my mother's addictions. I can only control my behavior, and I do not enable her. If a doctor recommends it and she agrees then I'll help facilitate it, but that is it. It's possible that the court will order it, and if they do she will have to comply. Again, this is not MY responsibility.
And she lives in a condo right next door to her? You are going to have to work really really hard to maintain boundaries!
Be very careful with the driving....I was my mother's driver (I called myself the "Dummy Daughter Driver" because she thought I was stupid). I set strict boundaries for hauling her places -- to Mass for Sundays and Holy Days, one a week grocery shopping (combined with chair yoga at the rec center while I swam laps), and medical appointments. Before she gave up driving, she went out most every day. She could no longer walk at the mall. Any time I took her anywhere, it took HOURS. She wouldn't let me do her grocery shopping for her (if she did, I would have taken her to the mall once a week to walk with the people she knew). She didn't have a smartphone, and wouldn't have been able to manage Uber or Lyft. She refused to take the city handiride.
She wasn't happy with the boundaries, but in time she came to accept them.
As for how your mom will get around - certainly you can offer to take her to the store for groceries and other supplies, and various other locations (appts, etc.) She may want to be able to venture out on her own, so you might need some alternatives.
I know some suggested Uber, Lyft, senior buses, etc, but when dealing with dementia, these options might not work well, or for long. Just as many dementia drivers have gotten "lost", ending up many miles from home and with no clue how to get back, the same can happen when using these kind of transport systems. There might be some who figure out they can take advantage of her, if they detect she's not playing with a full deck. I'm sure most drivers are legit, but it only takes one.
I liked your idea of hiring someone who can be her "driver", but also be a companion who can watch over her in your staid. It would be great to have her get used to this now, and then as needed you can increase the time/activities of this aide. You might have to shop around a bit to find an agency that offers this (maybe easier in FL?) The agency we used would not allow the aides to drive mom anywhere (liability likely), but they could run errands for her, for instance picking up milk and juice when mom ran low or out of these between my visits.
As her dementia progresses, she is going to forget about the revoked license, and that she sold her "camp." Be prepared for making excuses (if you tell her the truth, she may not believe you or argue with you or accuse you of stealing it!)
Hopefully things will go smoothly for you. One would hope that the courts would allow you to "present" yourselves remotely rather than forcing you to drive all the way there AND expose both yourself and her to the virus. Even better, perhaps the atty can just be there in your staid and maybe get the charges down a bit, a fine, restitution, and revoking the license... Wouldn't hurt to ask - it isn't like any of you are going to dispute the charges.
Real quick on the driving- my DH has the keys as we got them before she took her trip to PA. We plan to keep them, and for now she is not putting up any kind of fight. She has this little glimmer of hope that at the end of her suspension she can go to the medical evaluation driving place in Florida and legally get her license back. No way is that ever going to happen, but rather than torment her with the finality of it now -I'm hoping she just forgets about it over the next 12-18 months.
I'm glad you support the idea of hiring a companion. I've been thinking about this a lot. Still brainstorming, but if I could find the right situation it would help so much.
It's going to be a couple months before she hears anything from the court. I plan to talk to the lawyer sometime next week, but yes, I'm really hoping she will not have to make another trip in person. If she does it will be a short trip and she won't be going alone.
Thanks again!
She already is diagnosed, that happened about 2 years ago. Her driving saga has been quite the ordeal as evidenced by my many posts on the whole thing, ending with her getting a DUI at age 75! But we are at the end of that. She won't drive again, and we have the keys.
Honestly I understand the intense opinions on dementia and driving. I too feel strongly about it and have vented about it numerous times. It's unfortunate it took a DUI to get her off the road, but this also brings relief.
I knew a woman (aunt of a friend) who had a paid friend. She hired the friend herself. She didn’t have dementia. Her daughter lived next door and took her to her doctor appointments and to church. This aunt had mobility problems. Her friend came a few times a week. They went to the hairdressers or shopping. Went to DQ. Watched tv together. Took rides. Whatever they decided. When she went into a NH, the friend would visit, bring her outfits from home. Play bingo with her. The paid friend was a few years younger and very cute, dressed nice and made the aunts life more fun. She also had a boyfriend who would come drink coffee with her. He developed Alzheimer’s and went to the NH years before Aunt died. I admired how she managed her life.
Might be hard to find just the right person but they are out there.
I think that hiring a companion is a great solution for your situation. I also recommend putting boundaries on your time, just so she doesn't run you ragged with needing to go, go, go.
If she doesn't have one, now is a good time to introduce a grocery list keeper. I use a magnet, pencil on a string and a pad on my fridge, tear and go. This can help keep the items in stock that create a trip to the grocery.
You have done so much for your mom and she has bruised and battered you for all of your caring. Please do not let her or your precious heart make you pay for the consequences of her choices. Keep your boundaries and walk away, hang up or leave if she starts in on you. You matter just as much as her and you DO NOT deserve to be her scratching post.
Stay strong and resolved! Best of luck finding a good companion that makes this new season in your journey the best yet. Great big warm hug!
Big hug back to you.
Let the law take its course and expect the Court to permanently revoke her driver's license. She will probably have to pay heavy fines and even alcohol program at her expense, but it is better than killing some child or other innocent bystander. You may want to organize her seeing a psychiatrist to get a competency hearing and establish power of attorney or court appointed legal guardian. The court may order that...if not get her to see a psychiatrist to get that competency hearing if DPOA is not established.
DO NOT LET HER DRIVE--take away her keys if necessary, and confiscate the car.
Just engineer a settlement where the court tells her to give up her license due to a recent medical test. You are not the bad guy and case is solved.
By the way, I am not a lawyer but I think this is the way Perry Mason would handle it.
My dad refused to stop driving until his license was legally taken. Because he is convinced he is going back to court soon to get his license back and his incompetency overturned, though he still complains, he does not drive.
Of course they will never give him a license again and it has now been 2.5 years and he has not tried to drive since the day of his suspension.
Let her believe she will get it back as long as she does not drive while it is suspended. I pray it works for u. I'm still shocked honestly that it works for my dad who is adamant he is going back to court soon. He does not have a God concept of time as he cannot tell u how long it has been since his license was taken.
I take him where he wants and/or needs to go.🙏🏾💜
Getting rid of the car soon could be further justified by point out that it would depreciate if just sitting around, so selling it now would get the most money.
It's really out of your hands as to how her legal team (since you are excluded from that process) will handle her case. Hopefully she had insurance on her car to cover the damages, or that may be part of her restitution.
Let the brother handle it and disable the car while it's at your house. Upwon her return to your house, I'd ask for the keys to drive home the point of no driving.