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Is my sister allowed to use my moms money in the bank to take care of her if she's already using all her S.S check every month? And how much is legal for her to use of the check every month.
I'm wondering why you are asking us, and not your sister? Is she using Mom's money to care for your mother's legitimate needs? Why should your mother not cover all of her own expenses? S.S. doesn't always amount to big income. Have you asked your sister for an accounting of how the money is being spent? That would be my first course of action. And she has an obligation to S.S. to annually submit a report for how Mom's money has been used. Are you helping with some of the Caregiving? Perhaps a little more understanding of your Mom's explicit needs will answer this question for you. By all means, if a parent has money in the bank, and has additional expenses, it should be used for her care. Unless, you had other plans for it??? What does your Mom say?
As SS says, all of your mom's money is for her care. If you would feel better, you could ask your sister for an accounting of how she spends the money. Caring for an elder takes money, and those who don't do the actual work often aren't aware of this. Then, suspicion about the caregiver can arise.
I hope your sister is keeping good records and you can resolve this issue. Chances are very good that this money is being legitimately used, however if there is doubt, it poisons your relationship with your sibling, so getting everything out in the open is a good idea.
your moms money is for her care, however if your sister is not the durable power of attorney she should not be signing off mom's checking account. Also if mom is unable to handle her money your sister can get a letter from the doctor and become legal rep over mom by going to social security. She will have to go to the local social security office with legal papers so she is in full charge of mom. There are some question that they will ask and some paper work they will need. Your sisiter can also call the elder care in you area. There are special laws to protect the elderly from someone using there money with out legal doucments.patrica61
There seems to be a growing misconception in the US that parents who qualify for both Social Security and VA Benefits or Medicare have all their retirement and Long Term Care needs covered. If only that were the case! Sadly, many adult children are suddenly thrust into the caregiver role without any preparation or tools. So when the inevitable need for full time care arises, it creates a double catastrophe. First, it dispels any illusion that Mom /Pop had everything covered or that Uncle Sam will step in and take care of everything. Second, breeds contention among siblings who come to believe that somehow their parent has played favorites and they have been pushed out of the inner circle. I think SecretSister has asked jeredmo exactly the right question: Why are you asking us? But given the scant details provided by jeredomo, I would have requested more info before I attempted to give any advice here.
Jeredmo...does your sister have joint account? If she does she can withdraw the monies from the bank and sign, because usually if you are joint the check has both names, and she can sign. Otherwise the POA (Power of Attorney - legal) will allow her to withdraw and sign the checks as well.
This is a very sensitive subject. As all have commented above, your mom's money, whether from her SS check or a bank account, is for her care. You don't say if your mom is capable of having any input. If not, a wise move for your family would be to establish some legal "responsible parties" now. Doing so will make life easier in the future when your sister may be asked to provide proof of decision making authority. Decision making in a crisis is always painful and difficult. Making the decisions before a crisis is the way to prevent some of the angst and division among siblings in times of great stress. Careful accounting of all funds used is a wise practice because if a need for Medicaid arises in the future, an accounting of how the money was spent will be required as part of the application. Open clear communication will be a friend to you in this dilemma
jeredmo, any "is it legal" question is always best answered by legal counsel, not anyone who is not licensed to practice law, so I do agree with those who have said that we are not the right folks to ask. Regarding your sister's use of your Mom's money, if she is your Mom's primary caregiver, there is no way that she can take proper care of your Mom without using your Mom's money to do so, unless she is independently wealthy. This, of course, assume that she has been given power of attorney by your Mom and is not committing fraud by accessing an account to which your Mom has not authorized her to access prior to becoming disabled. If your sister is not committing fraud, it always saddens me when relatives who are not involved in day-to-day caregiving, are the first to second-guess the primary caregiver's decisions. Until someone has walked a mile in a caregiver's shoes, I don't know why that is done unless there is suspected fraud. If there is not a reasonable suspicion of fraud, my own take is there should be nothing but kudos to someone who chooses to, or is relegated by other family members to be the exclusive, or primary caregiver. Until one has walked a mile in another's shoes, being understanding of the uncharted territory and unending challenges of caregiving should always remain visible. Not being harsh, I just have seen this happen to other caregivers who are simple treading water, doing the best they can to keep their loved one's lives together, while endlessly complicating their own existence, only to be judged harshly by relatives.
Wow..well said caregiverslight. I am one of those kids who has been "chosen" to care for mom and thank God she put me on the joint account and signed the durable power of attorney. I am a single mom who works full time with kids of my own. Mom wants to stay in her own home with hospice care, not go to the hospital and I could not afford to keep two households afloat and pay someone to stay with her and buy the groceries if she had not. Its money she was planning on leaving to me but if I need to spend some of it to care for her then thats ok. My brothers live out of state and are not local so I explained it to them and oh well too bad. If I did not have access to it I am not sure how we would have handled it. I am grateful to be able to have a choice and be able to give my mom what she wanted.
Thanks, ddarkangel. The obvious and hidden expenses of caregiving are enormous, as your reply suggests. The last thing any caregiver needs is a tug-of-war regarding a loved one's finances. Is the person being cared for neglected in any way, or deprived of anything ought to be the litmus test, not nickel-and-dime accounting. Can you imagine how demoralizing that is to a caregiver who is already carrying a heavy burden of physical care on his or her shoulders, if there is no fraud involved?
You need to get a list of her expenses to see if the SS check she is using covers all the expenses. Life is EXPENSIVE and I cannot begin to tell you how expensive diapers, diaper liners, medication, food, etc. etc. are. To protect yourself, get a list of the items and their expenses and make sure you sister is keeping the receipts. You may find out that the SS check simply isn't enough to cover the expenses.
Without even knowing, I wholeheartedly agree with memsobelle. The hidden costs of caregiving are a real killer, yet many caregivers, including me, simply absorb those costs uncomplainingly.
My sister is POA and started dipping into my mom's assets for what she called "gifts". She claimed my mom wanted it this way but my mom has dementia and really is incapacitated. An attorney called this undue influence and felt it might merit further investigation. One of the problems is the cost of attorney fees to begin this process--as high as $250 an hour with charges starting the moment they receive a fax of documents. Having a joint conference with siblings and the sibling POA is helpful but the POA can do whatever he/she wants. Even call off meetings!
This gets so tricky. Often the elder did say, when competent, that he or she wanted certain things done for others (not just the POA), but didn't put it in writing. Other times, the POA is not acting in good faith. Either way, this underscores getting everything in writing.
Yes, it all has to be balanced by the attorney's fees. Sometimes getting a second opinion from another attorney is good, as attorney's have been known to go into things to make money, as well.
But if there is actual abuse of the money and the elder is not being cared for, then it should be investigated. People have "legally" done this for years, before Medicaid laws got stronger. They'd skim the money off the top and leave what was legally required for the elder's care for three years, but then take off the rest of the assets. The elder was cared for in the legally required way, but not always in the best way (even, say a double room in a nursing home when the money could have been used for a single room, where the elder would have flourished). That is immoral but was legal. Laws are tougher now, and there is a five year look back at how the money was spent, before the elder goes on Medicaid.
All said, this gets to be tricky territory, and when it involves families, as this does, it is much tougher going. It's sad that these cases even have to come to this.
I am self have been paying some of my mothers medical bills. Its is getting harder day by day. As far as working I left my job when my mom got so ill with the Alzheimer's. She is assisting living, plus a receive money from American group and still waiting on the veterans help. No matter how much money you may have in the begining it does not last long, with certain illness. My mom elected me as her Durable power of attorney legal rep. iI have the one on her health epoxy and the only one on her will besides my family. I have a lot on my plate, but at least everything was done by a lawyer and I did follow all the state laws in New York and now in Florida. I no it does not seem fair that here we are being the main caregiver and trying to following all the laws and regulations just to take care of a loved one. patrica61og.
This does get tricky especially when the loved one is cared for very well and not neglected by the caregiver (who also happens to be the POA) but also by other siblings with love and devotion but at the same time, there exists the abuse of assets. An argument arises with my sister, the POA, as to whether Mom should save for a "war chest" for future needs or for a time when it is possible it will come to a "two-person lift" situation to quote a very good elder accountant. In my case, the POA in our family becomes like a bear without consulting her siblings and just spending!
I would ask to see and copy The Durable Power of Attorney for Healthcare from your sister. Is your sister the Attorney-in-fact for this service? If not, get to a lawyer....now. Also, who holds the Power of Attorney for Finances for your mother? Who appointed this person? Where are the papers? Now, if your sister truly holds the POA for both of these services, then there is nothing you can do about her spending the SS money on healthcare. She can spend the whole check if she feels it necessary.
YES THAT IS CORRECT ABOUT THE DURABLE POWER OF ATTORNEY, IS THERE IS NO LEGAL PAER WORK REGARDING A PARENT YOU CAN NOT TOUCH THERE MONEY. IT IS THERE OWN MONEY. YOU MUST SEE A ATTORNEY BOTH YOU AND YOUR SISITER, IN CASE SOMTHING HAPPENS TO YOUR SISTER WHO WILL TAKE CARE OF YOUR PARENT. tHE STATE WILL ELECT SOMEONE. ALSO MAKE SURE THERE IS A WILL, AND IF ANY PAID UP INSURANCE POLICIES THAT CAN USED WITH ONE OF YOU LISTED AS BENEFICARY. YOU CAN SET UP A PRE PAID FUNERAL. THERE ARE VERY STRICK LAWS ON THE ELDERLY FOR THERE OWN PROTECTION. YOU DON'T WANT SOMETING COMING BACK AT YOU. YOU MAY BE THE ONE YOUR MOM HAD PICK TO BE HER CARE GIVER, YOU NEVER KNOW. BOTH YOU AND YOUR SISITER SHOULD GET TOGETHER AND CHECK ALL THE PAPER WORK MOM MAY HAVE REGARDING HER WISHES. YOU CAN CALL EDLER CARE IN YOUR STATE AND SEEK OUT A ELDERY LAWYER FOR A FREE MEETING. i WAS PICK BY MY MOM TO BE DURABLE POWER OF ATTORNEY, ON THE WILL AND HEATH EPOXY AND CARE GIVER PLUS LEGAL REP ON HER BANKING ACCOUNT. YOU CAN NOT SIGN THRE NAME WITH OUT LEGAL PAPERS TO SPEND THE MONEY.PATRICA61
The paperwork is very clear and legal. Unfortunately, the attorney who changed the POA from me to my sister did not think to notify me (and in our state is not legally bound to) nor did she think to appoint a co-power of attorney which is the best option. My sister has all the power for both financial and health issues which if she recuses herself leaves the POA to my brother. This would be a better option than the current situation so we are hoping she will either consider giving it up or adding me as co-power of attorney. I recommend this to anyone -- do not leave it in one person's hands.
I Patricia have been a caregiver over ten years for my mom, I care a lot about her, the main thing you have to remember that you want what is best for her, you do not want the state to step in and make the decesions for you. There has to be some kind of paper work stating that you are in charge of her, from power of attorney, to even for life support in case someting happens and she has to go into a hospital. Do you want your mom kept alive with all kinds of tubes. Some times doctors don't tell you what is the right thing, You have to go with your heart, if mom can stay with you and is not a hardship on you and your family let her spend her days with you with love and care.patrica61
I definitely want my Mom to be happy, well cared-for and protected for the unknowns of the future. I gladly and lovingly share the care for my Mom so money is not my for my own interests. As I stated in an earlier comment, the elder accountant recommended a "war-chest" of savings which she does not have because my sister, her POA, feels Mom should spend now even though Mom is incapacitated and does not know what she spends. We also maintain her home still in an expensive city, SAnta Fe. An example of the need to save is her disposal went out and needs to be repaired. We may have other needs and without a savings plan, this can add up and become impossible to keep up. As siblings we are in agreement to follow my Mom's wish to keep her home.
Remember that my first comments related to the fact that my sister is the legal POA. I have seen the paperwork. I understand that my Mom's money is for her care and that caregiving can be expensive. My Mom is fortunate to have more than enough money to be cared for in our homes which is what my sister has decided is necessary. The problem is the lack of accountability for the use of Mom's money from my sister, the POA. I have asked and asked. We finally have begun family meetings recommended by an elder accountant but we are at my sister's mercy if she decides she no longer wants to do this. My point is that it can be very difficult when one sibling has the complete power and the parent becomes incapacitated. I could ask my Mom what we should do but she will forget what she said the next instant. She is vulnerable to what an attorney called, "undue influence". I am fearful my sister will continue to spend without concern for the future. This is something people need to be made aware of. Always encourage the parent when preparing legal documents to make a co-power of attorney.
To Neonwocky: I want to say I share in my Mom's care constantly by keeping her in my home and by spending time with her in her home in Santa Fe. Mom's well-being in the future should also be planned for and because there are obvious and hidden expenses, we as caregivers acting in good faith, need to be prepared for this. Nickel and dime accounting can soon show reckless use of CDs, borrowing on Mom's home equity line of credit, careless spending of assets that may prove to be very problematic.
I am glad to hear that romerovelarde It was just the way you asked the question initially that had me wondering. I would think that your mothers attorney wouldn't let anyone borrow on her home equity line of credit unless it was an emergency. Have you all thought of selling the house that would be one thing taken care of and not and extra worry the worse thing for a house is to be left vacant. It seems it falls apart quickly. I wish you much luck getting your issue straightened out
I see you mom still lives in the house does she have in home care if she is incapacitated? I agree something should be in writing it is not unheard of for one sibling to have power for one area of moms life and another for another part of her life. I am my mothers sole caregive and supporter she gets very litte SS I had her open an account with my name on it for burial expenses. Thankfully my parents had nothing so there is no worry there. I will keep you in my prayers that your concerns are addressed and therefore, taken care of. Neonwocky
Some may have confused my comments with a question posed by Jeredmo. Neonwocky, maybe that question is what caused your suspicion? Thank you for your prayers. Your Mom is very fortunate to have you.
Sometimes when a family member gets ill the family does not always agree. Remember you mom may have choosen a special family member to take care of her and watch over her money. It does not always work like that. But you and your sister have to sit down and talk things over. If there is a power of attorney sometimes the lawyer will ask for a second person to be listed and all the legal documents. Don'e fight who is in charge of the money it is your moms and needs to used for her care for medical and personal needs not for the spending on other things. You may have to meet with a lawyer and also speak to her doctor about her condition. My mom made me ther sole power of attorney and also her brother if someting happen to me. i do have a brother, of which abuse my mom, however the lawyer made sure everything was written in her will and other paper work well before she got sick.patrica61
As I read all these comments about aging care, I keep wondering if the love is there? Hope so. What I wouldn't give to have just ten minutes with my husband again to see him in his wheelchair or special bed, helpless but watching all that we did, espcially the feeding, and tv along with magazine pictures to view. He went too soon.....age 81. Please don't let any of this be a burden to you all. Care-give with smiles, laughter, enjoyment and sunshine.
I feel your pain and confusion. Dispite not knowing all the facts and reading all of the postings I'm going to dive in and discuss a view that hasn't been addressed. The reality is, once a person appoints another to their POA the only way to challenge it is through guardianship- an expensive, lenghty, legal battle. Is this about the money spent or about her care? Depending on where you live, costs will vary. I don't know how much your mother receives from SS but the reality is that even for a well person- it's hard to make ends meet. You never said who lives with mom. The cost of her home, motgage or rent, taxs, insurance, laundry, meals, transportation, activities, utilities, household maintenance, housekeeping and personal assistence- not to mention aides and their needs ( internet, phone, food etc) combined this total tab can run over $7,000 per month. I don't know about you, but I've never met someone who has benefits that will come even close to this amount. Does your sister handle moms daily needs? If so she should legally ask the estate for a management fee. Does she use her car to run errands and pick up supplies for Mom? Then she should be entitled to insurance on her car- home health agencies in Fl tack on a $1 charge per mile. Did she buy a car with Mom in mind to transport her- then she should charge some of the costs to the estate. As POA any legal challenges that you may have, she may have her legal fees covered under the estate and you will have to use your personal funds to challenge it. Even if you win, it may be a loss for Mom. Your sister may walk away and place her in a home because she no longer wants to fight you. Good caregiving is often done out of love and with great emotional and financial sacrifice. If you believe that Mom is not being well cared for, then go forward with what you plan to do. If your sister is meeting all of your Moms needs and her wish is to remain at home- give your sister some slack. There are courts to "protect" financial accountability. There is no court of law for emotional or physical accountability.
To: Nataly1. I want to clarify that my Mom has her own home with no mortgage, has excellent insurance coverage, has pensions from her work and my Dad's, plus some savings. She is very, very fortunate, believe me. She needs 24/7 care due to her dementia which is diagnosed as moderate but not due to physicial disability. She is in great health. Mom wants to be in her own home and was there until my sister, the POA, moved her to her home in a different city without any consultation of her siblings or with Mom. Mom could pay for in-home care. Right now 3 siblings rotate her care and we are not concerned about transportation costs or anything related to that aspect of her care. Her needs are all taken care of because of my parents' wise planning and frugal lifestyle. I agree that good caregiving is done out of love. My siblings and I have always lovingly cared for our parents. My concern centers around the fact that my sister, the POA, acts unilaterally as the decision maker and not as part of a caregiving team. She has taken advantage of my Mom's savings because she refuses to act as part of the team and refuses to recognize that we must prepare for Mom's future needs. Please understand that discussion with a lawyer must take place when the parent/parents are not in any way incapacitated. This did not happen in my Mom's case. Mom's lawyer was unknown to her--not a family attorney with history of my Mom's case. This is the primary problem. Yes, she is well-cared for and one could argue that it is best to leave well enough alone. Cutting my sister some slack will leave Mom vulnerable to her undue influence and possibly with absolutely no savings/income for the future. Who will take up the slack then? romerovelarde
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I hope your sister is keeping good records and you can resolve this issue. Chances are very good that this money is being legitimately used, however if there is doubt, it poisons your relationship with your sibling, so getting everything out in the open is a good idea.
Carol
Yes, it all has to be balanced by the attorney's fees. Sometimes getting a second opinion from another attorney is good, as attorney's have been known to go into things to make money, as well.
But if there is actual abuse of the money and the elder is not being cared for, then it should be investigated. People have "legally" done this for years, before Medicaid laws got stronger. They'd skim the money off the top and leave what was legally required for the elder's care for three years, but then take off the rest of the assets. The elder was cared for in the legally required way, but not always in the best way (even, say a double room in a nursing home when the money could have been used for a single room, where the elder would have flourished). That is immoral but was legal. Laws are tougher now, and there is a five year look back at how the money was spent, before the elder goes on Medicaid.
All said, this gets to be tricky territory, and when it involves families, as this does, it is much tougher going. It's sad that these cases even have to come to this.
Carol
Now, if your sister truly holds the POA for both of these services, then there is nothing you can do about her spending the SS money on healthcare. She can spend the whole check if she feels it necessary.
Mom's well-being in the future should also be planned for and because there are obvious and hidden expenses, we as caregivers acting in good faith, need to be prepared for this.
Nickel and dime accounting can soon show reckless use of CDs, borrowing on Mom's home equity line of credit, careless spending of assets that may prove to be very problematic.
Thank you for your prayers. Your Mom is very fortunate to have you.
What I wouldn't give to have just ten minutes with my husband again to see him in his wheelchair or special bed, helpless but watching all that we did, espcially the feeding, and tv along with magazine pictures to view.
He went too soon.....age 81.
Please don't let any of this be a burden to you all. Care-give with smiles, laughter, enjoyment and sunshine.
Depending on where you live, costs will vary. I don't know how much your mother receives from SS but the reality is that even for a well person- it's hard to make ends meet. You never said who lives with mom. The cost of her home, motgage or rent, taxs, insurance, laundry, meals, transportation, activities, utilities, household maintenance, housekeeping and personal assistence- not to mention aides and their needs ( internet, phone, food etc) combined this total tab can run over $7,000 per month. I don't know about you, but I've never met someone who has benefits that will come even close to this amount. Does your sister handle moms daily needs? If so she should legally ask the estate for a management fee. Does she use her car to run errands and pick up supplies for Mom? Then she should be entitled to insurance on her car- home health agencies in Fl tack on a $1 charge per mile. Did she buy a car with Mom in mind to transport her- then she should charge some of the costs to the estate. As POA any legal challenges that you may have, she may have her legal fees covered under the estate and you will have to use your personal funds to challenge it. Even if you win, it may be a loss for Mom. Your sister may walk away and place her in a home because she no longer wants to fight you.
Good caregiving is often done out of love and with great emotional and financial sacrifice. If you believe that Mom is not being well cared for, then go forward with what you plan to do. If your sister is meeting all of your Moms needs and her wish is to remain at home- give your sister some slack.
There are courts to "protect" financial accountability. There is no court of law for emotional or physical accountability.
She needs 24/7 care due to her dementia which is diagnosed as moderate but not due to physicial disability. She is in great health. Mom wants to be in her own home and was there until my sister, the POA, moved her to her home in a different city without any consultation of her siblings or with Mom. Mom could pay for in-home care.
Right now 3 siblings rotate her care and we are not concerned about transportation costs or anything related to that aspect of her care. Her needs are all taken care of because of my parents' wise planning and frugal lifestyle. I agree that good caregiving is done out of love. My siblings and I have always lovingly cared for our parents.
My concern centers around the fact that my sister, the POA, acts unilaterally as the decision maker and not as part of a caregiving team. She has taken advantage of my Mom's savings because she refuses to act as part of the team and refuses to recognize that we must prepare for Mom's future needs.
Please understand that discussion with a lawyer must take place when the parent/parents are not in any way incapacitated. This did not happen in my Mom's case. Mom's lawyer was unknown to her--not a family attorney with history of my Mom's case. This is the primary problem.
Yes, she is well-cared for and one could argue that it is best to leave well enough alone. Cutting my sister some slack will leave Mom vulnerable to her undue influence and possibly with absolutely no savings/income for the future. Who will take up the slack then? romerovelarde