Anyone have suggestions on clever therapeutic lies for taking check book away from LO with dementia?
DH has POA, has been doing all bills for over a year. Stepsister has been getting FIL to write checks to her kids for birthdays, whatever. But now she got him to write a larger check for her daughter who is starting grad school. This step granddaughter was always FIL’s and his late wife’s favorite grandchild. FIL knows he is declining (CHF, and lung disease, etc.), and verbalizes he “doesn’t have a lot of time left on this earth.” We could see him start writing even much larger (tuition) checks to this one step granddaughter. The (stepsister) mother of this grandchild child is manipulating FIL.
DH takes the checkbook out of his AL room whenever FIL is in the hospital. FIL always asks for it back. We’ve already used, we must order more checks excuse. FIL kept asking and DH gave him checks back in the past. DH currently has the checkbook since the last stint in the hospital, but FIL is asking for it back again. FIL is smart and manipulative. Need something clever to tell him.
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These are good suggestions except …. a POA can’t gift money away . If DH says he will take care of it next time … This step daughter will tell FIL that whatever money she was expecting didn’t come . It’s disgusting that she prompts this man with dementia to write checks. Her family is the only checks FIL has written to .
FIL has a diagnosis of dementia.
I am going to assume that POA is in effect.
FIL should no longer have access to his checkbook, credit cards or other means that would constitute a "legal document"
When you are signing your name on a check or when you sign for a credit or debit purchase you are entering into a legal agreement. If he is no longer cognizant he can not do that.
Inform family members that the POA is in FULL effect and that FIL is no longer able to make financial decisions.
If the family members disagree with that they can take it up with an attorney.
There is no way to tell him anything "clever".
If he does understand tell him that he needs to be careful with his spending because the cost of where he is living is increasing.
You can continue to tell him you are ordering checks
or
You can tell him that all checks are done on line now and that no paper checks are used.
or
Tell him anything else you want to tell him but with dementia he is going to forget what the reasons are. The difficult persons to deal with are the ones that are financially abusing an elder. And that is reportable and you can tell them that the next time they want a check written. That will hopefully that will put a stop to it.
Yes durable POA.
I agree cwillie. I told DH he has to put his foot down because he is legally responsible for his father’s money. I will keep reinforcing that .
If your husband is legally responsible for his father's money, why was he allowed to have a checkbook and endorse his own checks?
Your husband could easily with his POA, transferred all of his father's money into new accounts that he would have no access to if his dementia was so bad.
Yet he didn't do that. Why not?
I'll tell you why because I worked for a family in exactly the same situation as yours. An adult son had POA because his father was a responsible guy and getting old so took care of things beforehand so as not to leave his kids in any kind of a mess.
He still controlled his own money, paid his own hired help, and paid his bills.
Someone having POA does not mean they get control over the person's money and life the day the papers for it get drawn up.
If your FIL is old and sick and not long for this world, it's his right to spend his money any way he likes if his bills are paid.
There is some reason why your FIL still is in possession of his own checkbook and credit cards and able to endorse checks from his own accounts (that are his money).
So could it be that he isn't so out-of-it with dementia that he doesn't know and understand what he's doing? If he's still smart and manipulative?
Here's the thing. It's his money (FIL). If he wants to help pay for his "step" granddaughter's college tuition, what is so wrong with that?
He may think of her as his actual granddaughter. The same way that I think of my "step" son as my actual son since I was his mother since he was a toddler. His future children will NOT be "step" grandchildren to me. The person who would call them that to me will find themselves sorry indeed.
If your FIL's bills are paid and he can afford to help his granddaughter out with her education, it is not for your husband or anyone else to prevent him from doing so.
It is not the job of a POA to preserve potential inheritance for a person's adult children.
my mother was also fairly manipulative and incompetent to take care of her affairs at the same time . Was told that by her doctor .
We were told FIL is not competent to take care of or make financial decisions .
Despite having a list of family birthdays and anniversaries etc , that this step gave to FIL along with a box of cards she gave him that sits right in front of him at his kitchen table in his room , FIL never thinks to write a check or send a card to anyone else . This step is prompting him to do it. I consider that financial abuse.
(which undoubtedly makes him a much better man)
Exactly cwillie,
DH tries to tread lightly all the time with FIL. But now worried that if FIL starts writing large checks it will come back to bite him in the butt because he is legally responsible. And despite what burnts take on it is, FIL would not think to write these checks. Step SIL is totally prompting it . Isn’t a POA legally responsible to protect LO from financial abuse ? DH has been doing all the financials for over a year. Unlike the scenario that burnt told about another gentleman that she knew . FIL has not been capable to take care of his own bills , hire help etc .
Take the checkbook away. If you need a therapeutic fib, tell him it's not within his budget to keep giving money away, that he may not be able to afford the nice facility he is currently in.
Also, make sure there is absolute minimum of cash in the checking account in case he is able to write out more checks then they will bounce. Transfer the money into a savings account where he can't get it. Make sure he doesn't have the phone number of the bank, or know his account number (so that the rep wouldn't be able to process his request).
Inform the steppie that due to his diagnosis of dementia that DH is now doing ALL of his banking and financial decision making and that any requests need to come through DH in order to protect him from predators and financial abuse (and DH doesn't have to say it's the steppie, the fact is, those criminals do exist and operate everywhere. If one of them called him in the AL he could easily have his account drained -- all he'd need to do is recite the account and routing numbers printed at the bottom of each check). There will be blow-back from both FIL and the steppie, but so what?
Thanks Geaton ,
I could totally see FIL falling for something on the phone and giving away account and routing numbers .
After all FIL may be a DNR but we know how that goes. Many are going and going even with serious illnesses. And FIL may say no to this procedure or that right now but he could also do a 180 and change his mind too.
Yes, the gifting/disqualifying for Medicaid reason is a legitimate one to give the steppie and anyone else. Not sure the FIL will understand or care.
I would like to add that FIL is not mailing these checks . Step comes out to “ visit” and a check is written while she is with him .
I would gave a talk with step-sister. Tell her there is only so much money and that is being used for Dads care. There will be no large checks written to her daughter or checks written to just her kids. Bring up the Medicaid thing.
I agree that you need to keep Dads checks. I like the idea of transferring money to another acct and leaving him enough to write those birthday checks. Try to explain to him large checks cannot be written because that money is needed for his rent.
Thank you all for your ideas. I spoke to DH. We came up with telling FIL That it has been recommended not to keep check books in AL facility . I got this idea from the post talking about account numbers and routing numbers and that when he wants to write a “ birthday check “ DH will bring a check to FIL. This way DH will know he’s not writing a check for a large amount that he normally would not write .
Large gift amounts like a tuition bill for only one of the 8 grandchildren is not something FIL would do in his right mind . Just months ago he was worried about running out of money in AL .
He needs his money to take care of him . I agree , he could change his mind , do more aggressive treatments and live longer than expected and run out of money . Then Medicaid could come into play .
My MIL has her daughter on her checks. SIL is now writing all the checks that go out and has MIL sign them, then she co-signs.
If MIL wanted to write a check for $50,000 to someone, she could. SIL would have to co sign or the check is no good.
Mom had her FPOA on her checks. She was able to balance that checkbook to the penny every month and she'd have him go over the checkbook once a month. I think he had her make out the checks and then he'd sign them, too.
DH has to bring POA papers and step mother’s death certificate etc to this bank . It’s a long story , but this bank
account DH never finished dealing with because had to pay for step mothers funeral from it etc . The bank is out of state . Last year when the wife died and DH brought FIL from Florida back to the northeast by us , he opened up a bank account at a local bank . But this out of state account has a considerable amount in it still . The AL used to draw money from the out of state account . DH set it up that way to spend down that account . Then FIL told DH to switch AL payments to the local account . Don’t know why for sure . DH should have left it alone . He can switch it back to have AL paid from that account .
As others have mentioned, get checks where the FPOA and FIL both need to sign.
You might also need to consult an elder attorney, as it also might be in FIL’s right to write out checks for whatever he wants.
Another suggestion is for FPOA to move all the money into a different savings account and give FIL a weekly or monthly stipend in his checking account to spend as he wishes.
Or take the checks, but give him a fake register that he can balance regularly.