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The attending doctor should have a special declaration of incompetence to sign and be witnessed with his own stamp without the necessity to appear before a notary. A notary is unnecessary as long as all parties are competent attesting to the doctors signature.
I had the same problem with the bank, I had an enduring power of attorney drawn up and it was signed and stamped by a justice of the peace and witnessed by a social worker and a nurse at the hospital when Dad broke his leg.
The bank however wouldnt accept it. meanwhile over a month I had $2,000 dollars due in bills from Dads letterbox. Eventually, one of the staff had the brains to ring the local hospital and confirm that Dad was there and speak to him and under 2weeks later instead of the 3weeks they originally said it would take the banks own Form was accepted and they granted me Power of Attorney.
I think there should be staff from the bank that can ring the hospital,after all a scammer cant forge the phone number of the local hospital in the phone book.
whitt7: Here you go- What happens if no power of attorney is created
If the person who is suffering from dementia or Alzheimer’s can no longer make their own decisions, they are not legally able to sign a power of attorney form. That’s because this legal document gives the ability to make crucial decisions to another person and the grantor must fully understand what he or she is doing when signing a POA.
If a power of attorney can no longer be signed, you may be able to become a conservator. Conservators can act like a power of attorney agent, with the capability to make certain medical and financial decisions. But become a conservator takes time and sometimes involves a costly court procedure. That said, if you’re looking to aid a person who cannot make decisions for themselves, this court procedure is likely worth the effort. Just know that it can take awhile and it should be avoided if at all possible.
If you think you are a candidate for conservatorship, it’s recommended you speak with a lawyer as soon as possible.
Well, that is frustrating for sure. Two weeks ago, mom misplaced her purse (hid it) and called police, filed report against me (her remote daughter) as stealing purse. So she had no license, id, etc. Police called me (they know she is elder with dementia) and told her while they were there she wasn't to drive without license (she was a screaming maniac in background) and they advised she take cab in meantime. Well next day, she drove to bank and went in with no id, no checks, no nothing and witthdrew substantial sum of money (couple thousand) from her account. No call, no questions asked, etc -- NOW THAT IS STUPID on the bank's part. I realize they probably know her; but that should be a red flag to alert police or APS or even me (since I have been to bank with mom and provided my contact info).
It is extremely scary that such an event can happen without providing identification. I'm 59 and still have to provide id for a bottle of wine.
As I have posted before, this is certainly a difficult issue and results in more than a few choice words between me and bank representatives. I will add these thoughts: 1) Christine73 is incorrect, and is mixing up two ideas. A durable power is effective even if someone is incapacitated. A springing power is one that is not effective immediately, and only 'springs' to being when incapacity is shown by whatever method is provided in the POA. 2) Some states, including mine in North Carolina, do provide that if a bank refuses a POA it can be held liable in the Courts unless it had a good reason to refuse it. Usually pointing that out to the bank does the trick.
Two things. First, if you're her POA, you have the legal right to sign that form for her. Second, if you have a *durable POA, she does not have to be incapacitated.
i did contact the branch legal system. and i never asked you to have to go search for anything and at this stage please dont. All you are doing is upsetting me and i think you should be more considerate. Sooo, please, no more response from you. I dont want help from a [person who has no compassion.
Jo I have been through this entire thread and THE ONLY comment I can find of yours is this:
i have tried all these. doesnt anyone out there have any good advice???
Now whether you intended to be rude or not I don't know but it sure as hell came across like that to me because it sounded like you were inferring that all the previous advice was 'not good'
I haven't been sarcastic - I can be if you would like but others will tell you thats not my way. If however you have tried every piece of advice that people have given you and that has not been successful then you need to realise that the bank is under no obligation to recognise a POA immediately it is handed over. If you make an appointment to discuss the problem formally with the branch manager you will probably be able to argue the case more fully. You never mentioned anywhere in your first post about lawyers so please don't expect me to know things you have not articulated.
The reason they wont instantly recognise it is multitudinous and while it is a bloody nuisance and it is (been there done that got the tee shirt) they actually wanted to see my mother to make sure she was still alive for heavens sake. They also wanted the doctors certification of incapacity and it had to be dated AFTER the POA was registered with the courts. It is a lot of hoop jumping but you can get there eventually
Of course if you have posted on another thread and have expected me to hunt through the entire site then I will apologise - I don't have that much time on my hands right now but then I am the sole carer for my mother and trying to help my two children deal with the diagnosis of a terminally ill father.
HOWEVER
Banks wont have a blanket policy against accepting a power of attorney, since they every state has different laws.
Bank authorities are legally responsible to honour powers of attorney that have taken effect unless they believe or conceive that there may be something suspicious such as a forged signature or possibly a later POA which renounces the one you hav or perhaps yours has not been registered .
The problem is that most bank employees - especially the tellers rarely understand the law in relation to POAs so you have to go higher
As you appear to need to get the power of attorney recognized, you will have to be persistent. Insist on speaking with the branch manager. If he wont help ask for the number of the bank's legal department and call them yourself.
You will have to supply a copy of the power of attorney. If your mum's POA specifies that it takes effect when she lacks a certain mental capacity (rather than a specified date), you are going to need to prove that with a doctor's certification of that condition.
And for some states you have to register it with the courts which can cost about 70$
After that I haven't a clue and since I am British I reckon I have done quite well researching it
Same problem here. Already had a POA in place for my mom. Her bank account was joint with Dad (they had been separated for over 30 years!!). Went to branch of bank she opened account at, they refused. Talked to an attorney and his advise was to try another branch, ask them to have the POA sent to their Legal Department for review. Did that, spent some time talking to the Customer Service agent, who sympathized with the issue. She had some experience in this type of scenario. POA was sent to bank's attorney, in two days went back in and the solution was to have a NEW joint account in my and my mom's name, they ordered checks showing myself and mom printed on them, they then 'linked' the 2 accounts to be able to transfer funds between the 2 via the internet. Thereby allowing me to transfer the funds from account 1 to account 2, giving me access to her money to handle anything financial for her.
by the way Ms Phoenix Daughter I HAVE 2 LAWYERS, BUT no more money. If your just going to be sarcastic, then pleazzz do not answer my questions. The people on this site have enough to deal with than answers like yours!!!!!!
jo12345 you aint gonna get ANY advice with that approach. So lets be kind and start again - what have you tried thus far? Then others may try to help. All the advice we give is based on our personal experience - if that isn't good enough for you then might I suggest you pay to get advice from a financial and legal expert in your area.
ALL I want to do is have a DPOA so his sister cannot coax him into sighing his share of the family farm over to her and his one daughter coming here and taking anything she wants. I need something that I can use as a legal stop for these. he has the beginnings od Dementia and 3 agencies told me I should get a DPOA.
Some states have laws that provide additional assistance. I am in North Carolina, where there is a law that says that if a bank or other institution is concerned about a POA that is valid on its face, it may request n affidavit saying that the person presenting the document is the person named, that the person signing the POA is still living, and that the POA has not bee revoked. That affidavit provides the protection the bank wants/needs. If it still refuses the document, it can be charged with the costs of enforcing the POA. I have been able to send a copy of the highlighted statute and solve similar problems. Good luck to you!
In the USA.. I have just gone in online and changed it or changed the way I get the statements. Now just get emailed statements. I never had problems with banks. Only getting into my Aunt's safety deposit box. My DPOA papers did not specify I had that particular authority, so I couldn't get in.
In the UK we would only do that to have post redirected. To actually change the address on the bank file you have to have POA for (in my case) Mum in the UK. It is a royal pain in the butt but hey ho it has to be done
Info update on POA. PLEASE CHECK IF THIS IS YOU. I had a little bit of a surprise this week - well a lot of surprises but this one is important to you peeps. I know many of you have joint accounts and many bank staff think that if you have a joint account (not husband and wife in this instance - that in the UK comes under a different set of rules) you don't need a POA. In fact of the three banks I had the pleasure (?) of visiting not one of the staff had a clue about the implications of a POA and why you DO need one even if you have a joint account.
Everything will run positively smoothly (well maybe) UNTIL you want to do something like change an address. SAY WHAAAAAT? Yep I rang to change Mums address - now bear in mind I HAD registered the POA with the banks 15 months back and had extreme difficulty doing so (I took the appropriate docs down twice and still had to go a third time because they lost them!)
Well it turns out that the branch staff don't realise that you NEED and MUST have the POA to make alterations on the account so they just shredded the document (close your mouths people!!!!!yes I was aghast and open mouthed too). I can draw all the money out but I can't change an address - MADNESS but thats the UK law on joint accounts so make sure even if you are in a joint account that your POA is registered to cover that too
The hospice social worker or RN can initiate this. Regardless, unless the patient died immediately, the MD should have been out to visit within the first week on the program and usually within 24 hours. You can also ask whoever certified the patient as terminal (takes two doctors) or the primary, or the referring MD if they are familiar with the patient and have recently seen them.
Bof A would not let me open a joint account because he wasn't present because he was bedridden. So the account was put in my name only per he request. Now BofA closed the account.
My elder law attorney told me that banks have to abide by the POA. The POA is a properly executed legal document. It is not optional. As far as "different POAs" are concerned, there are 2: Durable POA, which is in affect immediately, and Springing POA, which comes into affect once the person is incapacitated. It makes sense that if you have "springing POA," you should have to prove that the person is incapacitated, so that the bank can properly abide by the letter of that document, which basically is "only accept if person is incapacitated." That does not sound like the case here. It sounds like a bad case of ignorance. That's why I recommended going up the ladder to some one who knows the rules. Often, the transactional people don't. This is also what my elder law attorney suggested if someone at first rejects your POA. That being said, there are new (past 5 yrs) standards for POAs. They need to detail all the powers, for example, "bank accounts, real estate, safe deposit boxes," etc. line by line. I would also call the corporate office of this bank and let them know what happened. One of the higher ups will call the bank manager and make sure he/she understands that the bank must comply with all properly executed legal documents.
As funny footnote to this story, about 18 months after I had my name put on the accounts, I called the bank (far away) to have a very large sum transferred from the savings to the checking account. I was inquiring about the correct papers and what I needed to have signed and mailed in. I was trying to prove who I was, etc.
The cheerful young woman on the phone said, "Oh, that is not necessary. I can do it right now." And, ba-da-boom. She did it. Transferred $10K from one account to the other.
So, I guess luck plays a role in all of this. Ah, if only it were all so easy.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
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APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
a social worker and a nurse at the hospital when Dad broke his leg.
The bank however wouldnt accept it. meanwhile over a month I had $2,000 dollars due in bills from Dads letterbox.
Eventually, one of the staff had the brains to ring the local hospital and confirm that Dad was there and speak to him and under 2weeks later instead of the
3weeks they originally said it would take the banks own Form was accepted
and they granted me Power of Attorney.
I think there should be staff from the bank that can ring the hospital,after all a scammer cant forge the phone number of the local hospital in the phone book.
What happens if no power of attorney is created
If the person who is suffering from dementia or Alzheimer’s can no longer make their own decisions, they are not legally able to sign a power of attorney form. That’s because this legal document gives the ability to make crucial decisions to another person and the grantor must fully understand what he or she is doing when signing a POA.
If a power of attorney can no longer be signed, you may be able to become a conservator. Conservators can act like a power of attorney agent, with the capability to make certain medical and financial decisions. But become a conservator takes time and sometimes involves a costly court procedure. That said, if you’re looking to aid a person who cannot make decisions for themselves, this court procedure is likely worth the effort. Just know that it can take awhile and it should be avoided if at all possible.
If you think you are a candidate for conservatorship, it’s recommended you speak with a lawyer as soon as possible.
Well next day, she drove to bank and went in with no id, no checks, no nothing and witthdrew substantial sum of money (couple thousand) from her account. No call, no questions asked, etc -- NOW THAT IS STUPID on the bank's part. I realize they probably know her; but that should be a red flag to alert police or APS or even me (since I have been to bank with mom and provided my contact info).
It is extremely scary that such an event can happen without providing identification. I'm 59 and still have to provide id for a bottle of wine.
1) Christine73 is incorrect, and is mixing up two ideas. A durable power is effective even if someone is incapacitated. A springing power is one that is not effective immediately, and only 'springs' to being when incapacity is shown by whatever method is provided in the POA.
2) Some states, including mine in North Carolina, do provide that if a bank refuses a POA it can be held liable in the Courts unless it had a good reason to refuse it. Usually pointing that out to the bank does the trick.
and i never asked you to have to go search for anything and at this stage please dont. All you are doing is upsetting me and i think you should be more considerate.
Sooo, please, no more response from you. I dont want help from a [person who has no compassion.
i have tried all these. doesnt anyone out there have any good advice???
Now whether you intended to be rude or not I don't know but it sure as hell came across like that to me because it sounded like you were inferring that all the previous advice was 'not good'
I haven't been sarcastic - I can be if you would like but others will tell you thats not my way. If however you have tried every piece of advice that people have given you and that has not been successful then you need to realise that the bank is under no obligation to recognise a POA immediately it is handed over. If you make an appointment to discuss the problem formally with the branch manager you will probably be able to argue the case more fully. You never mentioned anywhere in your first post about lawyers so please don't expect me to know things you have not articulated.
The reason they wont instantly recognise it is multitudinous and while it is a bloody nuisance and it is (been there done that got the tee shirt) they actually wanted to see my mother to make sure she was still alive for heavens sake. They also wanted the doctors certification of incapacity and it had to be dated AFTER the POA was registered with the courts. It is a lot of hoop jumping but you can get there eventually
Of course if you have posted on another thread and have expected me to hunt through the entire site then I will apologise - I don't have that much time on my hands right now but then I am the sole carer for my mother and trying to help my two children deal with the diagnosis of a terminally ill father.
HOWEVER
Banks wont have a blanket policy against accepting a power of attorney, since they every state has different laws.
Bank authorities are legally responsible to honour powers of attorney that have taken effect unless they believe or conceive that there may be something suspicious such as a forged signature or possibly a later POA which renounces the one you hav or perhaps yours has not been registered .
The problem is that most bank employees - especially the tellers rarely understand the law in relation to POAs so you have to go higher
As you appear to need to get the power of attorney recognized, you will have to be persistent. Insist on speaking with the branch manager. If he wont help ask for the number of the bank's legal department and call them yourself.
You will have to supply a copy of the power of attorney. If your mum's POA specifies that it takes effect when she lacks a certain mental capacity (rather than a specified date), you are going to need to prove that with a doctor's certification of that condition.
And for some states you have to register it with the courts which can cost about 70$
After that I haven't a clue and since I am British I reckon I have done quite well researching it
If your just going to be sarcastic, then pleazzz do not answer my questions.
The people on this site have enough to deal with than answers like yours!!!!!!
Everything will run positively smoothly (well maybe) UNTIL you want to do something like change an address. SAY WHAAAAAT? Yep I rang to change Mums address - now bear in mind I HAD registered the POA with the banks 15 months back and had extreme difficulty doing so (I took the appropriate docs down twice and still had to go a third time because they lost them!)
Well it turns out that the branch staff don't realise that you NEED and MUST have the POA to make alterations on the account so they just shredded the document (close your mouths people!!!!!yes I was aghast and open mouthed too). I can draw all the money out but I can't change an address - MADNESS but thats the UK law on joint accounts so make sure even if you are in a joint account that your POA is registered to cover that too
The cheerful young woman on the phone said, "Oh, that is not necessary. I can do it right now." And, ba-da-boom. She did it. Transferred $10K from one account to the other.
So, I guess luck plays a role in all of this. Ah, if only it were all so easy.