Can adult protective services get the law involved if the victim isn't interested?

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Can adult protective services get the law involved if the victim isn't interested?

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My grandma was contacted and is being investigated by adult services for financial abuse. Her bank is claiming me and my mother have misused her bank account. I have told them a portion of the money is what my grandmother loaned me for some custody legal fees for my daughter and I am paying her back with my tax return. They are still being pushy and continuing the investigation. They've gotten my grandma to revoke POA from my mother by getting her confused. She has early stage Alzheimer's but is still able to drive and care for herself everyday.

Alzheimer's & Dementia Elder Abuse Elder Law

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Yes they can get the law involved even if your grandmother is not cooperative.

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Shes talked to them and told them she loaned me the money and that my mother who has POA has her permission to do whatever she wants with the bank account. They just won't listen to her

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The bank is looking out for your grandmother, and good for them! It may seem harsh and unforgiving, but the bank has to err on the side of caution to protect their clients. If, as POA, you withdrew money for yourself, even if you intend to pay it back, then I'm afraid the bank is perfectly justified in questioning the withdrawal. If your grandmother is still mentally competent (in the eyes of the bank), then she just needs to let the bank know that whatever withdrawal you made was legitimate and authorized by her.

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She did tell them that. She told them she lent me the money and that my mother who has POA can do whatever she wants with the bank account but they are not listening

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If you have nothing regarding this “loan” in writing and signed by you and Grandma, this will not go well for you. I’d be thinking about getting a lawyer.

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You need to have dPOA-Durable Power of Attorney or Financial POA. Healthcare POA is for when she becomes unable to speak on her own behalf due to health reason. Banks don't budge unless you have Financial Power of Attorney.
Getting that now would look suspicious, so Grandma needs to go into her bank and at least sign the banks paperwork that allows you access to her account and then-you can only do limited things.
I attend to my Mom's financial things but at her bequest and I have gotten to know most of the people at her bank quite well but there are still some legal documents that need her attention that only she can do, and this is because she refuses to give me DPOA.
Good luck.

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Great advice here. The formal legal arrangements do matter. It is risky doing things on a casual "family understands" basis.

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Get a good lawyer ASAP if you want to prevent the state from taking guardianship of Grandma. If that happens you and your Mom could effectively be cut out of Grandma's life which I'd imagine would be horrible for all involved. As far as being prosecuted for crimes, that is highly unlikely unless there is much more than what you are telling us, but what the state will do is take complete control of Grandma and her assets and cut you and Mom out of her life possibly.

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Talk is cheap. You need to document in writing, with an attorney is best. Anything short of that may end up in a bad outcome for you.

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Mom cannot do as she pleases with grandma's bank account, including lending money. As POA the only responsibility mom has is to do what is for grandma's benefit and in her best interest. Best file for that tax refund soon.

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I don’t see how they could do anything unless your grandmother is telling them you and your mother stole the money.

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Actually, if the bank sees activity as suspicious, they can step in and question it. When my FIL passed away, my MIL went into the bank with my husband and his sister to close out accounts & open new ones. My SIL insisted she have access to those accounts even though she doesn’t have any POA. Red flags must have been raised to the bank manager who suggested & prevailed that my husband, who is named in the POA documents, have it as well. My husband reluctantly agreed and made it clear (1) MIL was of sound mind and (2) MIL was living with both his sisters now, so they would know better her needs.

Two months later the bank manager calls my husband. MIL had applied on-line for a HELOC & she was concerned. Hubby was concerned as well but legally couldn’t do anything, plus his mother hadn’t said a word to him about it. He knew deep down what his sisters were trying to do. Bank manager insisted MIL come in alone or with my husband and/or lawyer to discuss the loan application. She made it very clear to MIL those were the only ones who could be present. I guess they go thru this enough. MIL went alone and made a huge scene that it’s her money, blah blah blah. Bank manager calmed her down by saying they would submit the application but weren’t sure if it would be approved, as she didn’t have the income to pay it but they would try. Loan was denied. Bank manager kept my husband up to date throughout the whole process, MIL hasn’t said a word & that was 2 years ago.

Hubby has never looked at the accounts he has access to; heck, he doesn’t even look at our accounts. 😒

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If your grandmother is still driving, she couldn’t be too bad. If I was her, I would change banks. Banks are going too far now. I tried wiring my granddaughter money and they made me come down and show my ID even though they called me on the phone and I have a mortgage through them.

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In AZ, I had dpoa for financial aid health. APS investaged me and my mother for 9 months, which included a monthly visit because my brother contacted them accusing me of financial abuse out of pure spite. I was finally cleared and case closed. As 24/7 caregiver alone the additional stress was huge and unforgivable.

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You definitely need a lawyer. I am POA for my parents and helping them with their finances is one of the areas I feel most uncomfortable with. My Dad has a movement disorder and it has progressed to the point that he can no longer write checks. My mother’s hands are severely disformed and she can’t write either. I pay all their bills, deposit all their checks. I purchase all their supplies etc. I have had one check written out to me for $47.00 for items I purchased with my own credit card. Not only do I have a fiduciary duty to my parents, the bank does as well. They are the protectors of your Grandmothers bank account and so is your Mother. The bank can and should investigate any large amounts of money paid out that looks suspicious

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A POA presumes (expects) fiduciary responsibility over bank accounts. Your grandmother's bank account SHOULD NOT be used to get you out of a financial jam, regardless of your intention to "pay her back". Period.

Word of warning: if your grandmother stays alive long enough to need long-term care and she will need assistance to pay for it -- meaning Medicaid, before she is given that assistance, Medicaid will demand to see every transaction that has occurred in her bank account over an EXTENDED amount -- they could go back 5 years. It can be an ugly audit of accounts and your grandmother could be denied assistance for these financial "gifts" (mishaps?).

The best you and your mother can do for your grandmother is to not touch her bank accounts and don't ask for money from her. It's harsh, I know, but that is truly the best action to take at this point.

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What if the grandmother's account is paid back in full during that 5-year period? Would this essentially "cancel" the original transaction in the eyes of the Medicaid people?

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You really have no business using your vulnerable granny's money for your legal messes anyway - now you have another rather serious legal mess.

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I don't understand how, after your grandmother talked to the bank, they are still not satisfied and I also don't understand how the "bank" got involved and got the POA revoked. That seems really above and beyond what is normal. Yes, they have some fiduciary responsibility but I don't know how far they can go with that without a family member making an accusation. But involving themselves in getting your grandmother ti revoke the POA? Something seems really off here. Who is the POA now? If she has dementia, maybe she is not competent to even revoke the POA. But if she did, now what? Is guardianship needed?

You need to talk with an attorney.

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Maybe revoking POA is coming from the district attorney's office as they would be the ones to prosecute.

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This is why it's so important to not just have healthcare and financial POA documents drawn up early (and reviewed at least once per year), but to have them written very carefully to avoid issues later on. For example, my mom was diagnosed with Stage IV colon cancer and AD in 2015. She knew her prognosis wasn't great, and she wanted to gift my brother and I money each year while she could still get joy out of doing so (i.e., remember) . She changed her financial dPOA to explicitly state that $X was to be gifted in equal amounts to my brother and myself each year and $Y was to be gifted to her church. We've never had any issues, but I must say, the bank did require my mom to be there in person to deliver the updated dPOA.

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I wish the bank had been on top of my mom's account. Little brother was tearing checks from the back of her checkbook and writing them to himself!

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This is this is just a little off topic but I am caring for someone with Alzheimer's and memory matters in Hilton Head and the doctors I believe have told me that once a patient has diagnosis of Alzheimer's whether you are paying the insurance or not if there is an accident she has no insurance please check that out.

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CORRECT. It's like driving drunk. The insurance company can claim negligence on the part of the insured and deny coverage.

Of course, if the fault is on the other driver, an attorney is wise to protect one's rights.

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I'm going to stir the pot a little here (sorry not sorry) as I find some of the responses here a little silly. Granted we don't know the fine details in this case and what really was discussed and agreed upon between the family members, but it's perfectly normal and reasonable in many families to loan or help other family members out financially when needed. Many Grandparents are happy and willing to help their family when needed. Some explicitly give away (maybe feeling the inheritance would do them better now than later). They don't think about or even know anything about Medicaid laws and gifting. The case here could easily be innocent and mutually transactional in nature in which case if Grandma were strong enough, she could raise wholly hell with the bank and APS and the courts if it ever got that far.

If she does have mild dementia, I would advise OP to have Grandma hire an attorney to fight for the her and the family. Assuming the transaction was as innocent as described.

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Mstrbill, I do not think it would have been a problem if the POA had not been activated. If it was activated, it is because a doctor thought Gma was no longer capable of making sound decisions.

That the bank in their due diligence reported that after Mum had POA on Gma's accounts, an unusually large sum was removed from Gma's account, is a good thing.

OP should be hiring her low lawyer to help her. To have Gma's funds used to hire a lawyer to defend OP is once again misuse of her funds and digging a bigger hole.

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GET AN ATTORNEY.

The County can take you to Court and appoint a conservator (expensive -- and your grandma pays).

As she is still driving with Alzheimer's, the Courty can also appoint a guardian to stop her and to make sure she is cared for.

GET AN ATTORNEY.

National Academy of Elder Law Attorneys
https://www.naela.org/findlawyer
<naela@naela.org>
NAELA Council of Advanced Practitioners
1577 Spring Hill Rd., Suite 310
Vienna, VA 22182
703-942-5711
<naela@naela.org>

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Agreed, I've heard enough horror stories about conservatorships, I agree an attorney is warranted.

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Unless the Durable Power of Attorney specifies that your mother is authorized to withdraw funds from your grandmother's account to loan out to a family member, your mother is in violation of financial abuse and fraud. Your grandmother may have verbally authorized the loan, but without a signed I.O.U. that has been witnessed or notarized by a neutral third party, it can be deemed misuse of her funds. This is a good lesson learned about what a DPOA can and cannot do with someone's assets.

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You can't dabble with grandma's money. You don't want to cast any doubt when she has to apply for Medicaid and they do the five year look back. What if she has a stroke today and has to go to a nursing home and you haven't got the money to pay her back right away. Medicaid would penalize her for that "gift/loan". Meaning they will not financially cover a portion of her care.

As POA your mother is responsible for making wise decisions that are in your grandmothers best interest. Loaning you money is not in your grandmothers best interest.

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The loan was my grandmothers idea not my mother's. She insisted but even with her saying she agreed and her not being fully incompetent adult services are still being pushy

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You say "a portion of the money". What was the "other" portion for? Sounds like a large amount if the bank is involved. Sounds like things were not put in writing, which creates even more problems. At this point it's a "she said, she said" scenario. Hire an elder law attorney ASAP. JMO and good luck.

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Lessons here for all - think twice and consult with EC atty before considering doing something like this. Even if grandma agrees and mom does the "POA" thing, it would be best to have a legal document specifying the terms of the "loan." CYA!

Would it not have been better (hindsight) to borrow from mom and pay her back? Can you do that now, to get them off your back? Another option is often credit cards offer balance transfers, many with a low fee (go for the ones that give you time, no interest and just a fee - I have done this to help my daughter, she transfers money to me to pay the monthly amounts. Typically they charge 3-5% upfront and no interest, while some have no fee no interest.) Waiting for the tax return, assuming what you get will be enough to cover the entire loan, could take some time. (BTW, grandma has plenty in her trust fund, but I would NEVER take anything from there to help my daughter out, even if "grandma" approved! I really don't even take anything other than occasionally gas money for managing everything for her - finances, medical care, meds and OTC needs, even though I have POA - EC atty, when I said POA does not say I can take money for doing all this, replied it doesn't say I can't, but personally I would not consider it! I could certainly use a "loan" to get my house repairs finished and pay it back when my funds are available, but I will NOT.)

There are also concerns about her driving. You say "She has early stage Alzheimer's but is still able to drive and care for herself everyday." The problems here are 1) if she gets into an accident, insurance could deny payment(s) and 2) there is no way to determine the timeline of any kind of dementia - some progress faster than others, and there are NO warning signs when the next "stage" will be. While our mother was in early stage, she was "able" to care for herself, but there were many things she wasn't able to do and she lived alone, so we couldn't see the full impact. When she reported a flat tire and I found it split from the rim to the ground, metal around wheel well bent half off, consult with YB and we worked on taking it away before she hurt/killed herself or someone else. Around that time (needed to take her grocery shopping is when I realized she was not cooking anymore, relying on boxed crap and frozen dinners. So, although someone "appears" able to drive and care for themselves, appearances can be deceptive! I would seriously consider getting her off the road.

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Good point about not borrowing from trust. One of my brothers was going thru a messy divorce & wanted to borrow from Mom’s trust (Mom had dementia). Sister & I, co-POAs, said absolutely not. He understood and found another way.

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Yes, they can continue to "push". POAs are for managing finances to the elder's financial needs... not yours. It will appear as if you and mom swindled your gram out of her money. I agree with others. Should have had a written agreement. Maybe start paying back a little every month and finish with your tax refund.

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This is really tricky, and I agree with everyone here. Even when you are doing what she instructed you to do it On her behalf (no loans to anyone) can be called into question. I’m living this now.
Her money used for her. Think about that why would anyone agree to being a POA for an ALZ LO?

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If this bank account is not joint between your mother and grandmother, your mother could also be charged with misappropriation of funds and you could be charged with accessory after the fact. This could mean a felony charge if the amount is substantial, depending on state statute. Whatever the situation, your mother mishandled the withdrawal of the funds against her DPOA responsibilities. Taking away her authority to manage your grandmother's assets was the appropriate course of action. In your case, pay back all that you borrowed as soon as possible.

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If it is a joint account isn’t it still the mom’s money? Does that make a big difference legally? Morally, it’s mom’s money even if the daughter has access to use for paying bills, etc.

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The police steps in if someone voiced vulnerable person abuse, daughter or no daughter. If there is money landed to you while the person was sick it would be a reason for concern. I would return it asap. POA does not give you access to use funds (and borrowing from a sick person does not look good), it just states that you have been trusted to help the individual.

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Are you absolutely sure it was the bank that called APS? Anyone can make an anonymous call & report something. Could a relative be upset that you borrowed the money?

The way to do a legal loan when a POA is involved is to have it in writing, minimal interest rate IS to be paid, and the loan is to start being repaid in 30 days. Per our elder care attorney here in GA. That also stands up to Medicaid scrutiny.

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Concernedcake,
You still there? I know some of the responses may have been difficult to hear, but this is a touchy subject for a lot of members; and it is absolutely black-and-white (except when it isn't). I think a great thing about this forum is that people can learn from other people's successes or failures, so I would love to hear more details on what's going on.

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Yes I'm still here no updates on anything yet. My grandmother feels the adult service people are purposely trying to confuse her and asking questions she doesn't quite understand just to make a point. She knows what we agreed and I have the money on me now to repay her but I'm afraid to even go to her bank and them think I'm trying to do something bad.. They got her alone and confused her so much she signed a poa revoke form without even realizing what she had done and now is so upset she feels she was tricked by them

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If you do start paying Grandma back, be sure there is a very good paper trail that will protect you and your mother to show APS that you are indeed paying her back. Talk to an Elder Law Attorney ASAP.

Several years ago I loaned my Son-n-Law some money, It was done on paper with a payment schedule written in and I charged him minimal interest. He didn't finish paying me back. I still have the paperwork and will never loan him another dime. If he asks why, I still have that paper work to show him.

You know the old picture of a baby sitting on a potty with the words, "No job is finished until the paperwork is done".

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Can adult protective services get the law involved if the victim isn't interested?

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