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Look at the admission agreement that was signed when you admitted your loved one into the Assisted Living (ALF). They can only come after the children if they agreed in writing to be responsible at the time of admission. If they are going after you and you don't have a copy of the admission paperwork I would tell them that you want to see where you signed that you would be financially responsible before paying. Normally, the payment follows the resident.
Unfortunately, many times children sign a form saying they will be responsible because of the way it is presented to them at the time of admission. Often the children were not aware that is what they were signing.
Again, tell them ALF to show you where you agreed to pay.
Again filial laws. People need to read up on filial laws. The OP is in a state with filial laws. Even if she doesn’t sign anything, she can be held responsible for unpaid LTC bills.
From AgingCare.com article 'Filial Responsibility Laws and Medicaid' by Attorney K. Gabriel Heiser
"These laws have not been relied upon for many years because they were less important after Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid were enacted to offer a safety net to seniors. However, such laws have recently been used to attempt to force children to reimburse care providers for their parents’ nursing home bills. As the baby boomer generation ages and requires more and more long-term care services and supports, the enforcement of filial support laws will likely increase as care providers attempt to recoup outlays for elder care. For example, in a 2012 Pennsylvania case (Health Care & Retirement Corporation of America v. Pittas), the court held that a son of an elderly woman who left the country owing $93,000 to her nursing home is liable for her bill under the Pennsylvania filial responsibility law. The mother had actually filed an application for Medicaid, but it was still pending at the time of this case. Thus, the bill for her care had to be paid for privately and the nursing home brought the lawsuit against her adult son. It did not matter that the adult child did not sign the admission form for his mother; his responsibility was based solely on his relationship to the debtor."
I recall reading about that PA case - Note that the son DID NOT sign anything!! Also note, mom skipped out of the country. So while it is BEST to include your POA status if/when signing for anyone, understand that this may make no difference whatsoever (for those in the remaining filial states)!
It sounds like these remaining laws on the books are rarely used, but certainly you can't rely on that. Given the tsunami of dementia cases and how difficult it is to keep LOs at home with this (or other major debilitating medical issues), one must beware of this if you live in one of those states. I think they focus more on well-to-do families who just want 'we the taxpayers' to pay so they don't have to, but there is no guarantee on who they will attempt to bleed. It would be best to consult with an Elder Care attorney, one who is well versed in Medicaid and AL/NH in general.
Previously about 45 states had these laws (dated back to ancient rules!!!) - I do see that Wikipedia lists NH but Attorney Heiser's list does not. In looking that up, I found an article written in 2013 (SIX YEARS AGO, comon' Wikipedia, get with the times!) in which they state the law was repealed (PHEW! Not that I am worried, we should have enough in her trust fund to cover many more years and she is almost 96 now!)
Although I think our ECA set up everything with the intent to file for Medicaid if mom ever needed a NH, I am a firm believer that the person's remaining assets should PAY for the NH - much as I would like to inherit something, it is HER money and was saved by my parents for any eventual need. Medicaid should ONLY be for those who have NO assets, and haven't given them away previously! Protecting the communal spouse is also key if/when using Medicaid. Otherwise the system will go broke and we all end up paying for that care for others via taxes/increased taxes.
Now, if mom WERE to outlive the remaining assets, I certainly cannot afford to make those payments! I am retired, on fixed income and don't even have enough to cover my own current bills, much less her MC or possible NH!!!
This is what I just found in the Web but the best advice is consult an attorney in your State.
“States with filial responsibility laws. Alaska, Arkansas, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada (Nevada law only addresses support of children and not support of parents.”
Seems I live in a State that has these laws but I have never heard of anyone being made to pay. What I just read was that children that have the resources are made to pay. Then, they have to find you. If Mom is in a state that has the law and you are in the state that doesn't are you responsible?
Me personally, I would tell them to sue me. The cost of bringing a lawsuit may not be in their best interest. These laws are outdated. It was to insure children provided support for parents that were impoverish. Making sure they had shelter, food, clothing and medical.
If your mother (or you as her representative, on her behalf) enters a contract for services with a facility, and she fails to pay or runs out of money, you are not liable in ordinary contractual terms. You are not party to the contract.
But. If her funding is taken over by Medicaid, or if the facility continues to support your mother because, say, they cannot legally discharge her, then the filial responsibility laws would allow these organisations - which have already incurred the cost of providing your mother's care - to look at their options for recovering those costs, which would include finding out whether her children can be required to meet them or at least contribute towards them.
The subject has been making headlines for a while, not only in the US (other countries have similar laws, some far more draconian). But I've just spent another half hour on it in case there have been more worrying cases recently, and it's still true - I cannot find a case which has not involved exceptionally wealthy children whose only apparent reason for not supporting their indigent parent was that they preferred that someone else should pay.
Average families with average incomes are not being forced into poverty by collections agencies chasing up their parents' ALF fees.
You are right to be circumspect, and you should be cautious because it has been known for facilities to talk very fast when it comes to signing the paperwork so that people have inadvertently accepted personal liability for their parent's fees - it shouldn't happen, but it does. But there are watertight ways to avoid that problem, and you mustn't let it put you off finding the right level of care for your mother.
How far have you got in terms of researching your options?
Actually what I have read is that if the person is on Medicaid, the only "recovery" they can do is to recoup as much as possible from the sale of the person's home, if applicable. Private pay - you are on your own!
Although there are still many states with old filial laws still on the books, it is rare for them to be used. The only case I have heard of was the one in PA, one of the states with filial laws. In that case, the mother was cared for in a NH, Medicaid was applied for but hadn't been approved when she left and went back to Greece. So the NH got nothing and sued her son, who had NOT signed ANY paperwork. The courts, thus far, found in favor of the facility.
Private pay is a bigger concern, and if they choose to use the filial laws, POA used or not, they *could* attempt to bleed you. Thankfully NH, where we live, repealed their filial law back in 2013!
Most bill collectors will try and harass the children - but this doesn't mean they are responsible for payment. Also, there are a lot of BOGUS collectors that are looking for "easy money" with their letters.
When my mother passed, we got a letter from a bill collector that she owed the hospital and it was our responsibility to pay. So I took the letter to the hospital and they tore it up. It was bogus. My mother owed nothing to the hospital.
Everyone worries about this one!! The answer varies according to what state you live in. I not only care for my 93 y/o dad, but I'm also a geriatric social worker. I thought that this was such an important topic that I made a video about it, maybe it will help to straighten out some info for you. Hope it helps. Here's the link: http://bit.ly/2NlMF6W
Sorry, thought this was a LTC. As long as you signed no papers saying ur responsible for Moms rent than I can't see how they cam come after you. They can try. Why isn't Mom making payments?
Filial laws Joann. The OPs state has them. That’s how they can come after her. If there are any unpaid AL or LTC bills prior to when the parent was approved for Medicaid, that’s usually when they go after the children. Now whether they will come after anyone is another story.
I read an article about this. Its very rare they go after a child. If paying it would cause a hardship, they aren't expected to pay. Ex: raising a family and can't afford. Retired and living on a limited income. Abuse by a parent.
These are old laws before Medicaid. Now we have Medicaid, family is not usually responsible.
Many thanks to worriedinCali for this information about filial law and the possibility of a child being forced to pay for a parent's nursing home/assisted living care. According to this AARP article it is only implemented by such facilities, and is RARELY implemented, but it is law in many states. Google your own state if interested. Very scary indeed. VERY. See link below.
Paying for Mom: Little-Known Laws Force Families to Fund Parents’ Care, family, parents, caregiving, laws, piety, seniors, nursing home, elders, finances, benefits - AARP Bulletin Today
Terrig123 It all depends on what assistance program you have and State law.
My home State, to get assistance from the State your parents must be at the poverty level, meaning if they have great assets they must pay down until they have hit that property line.
Then the Medicaid/State assistance comes into play. NOW, if they have a home you will not be able to sell it as the State will now place a lien and when the last spouse dies, the State sells the house and if it's not enough to pay back the money the State "helped" you with....THEN THE STATE HAS THE RIGHT TO GO AFTER ANY/ALL ADULT CHILDREN TO PAY. So, if you're the only one with any equity in your home, investments etc and the others have nothing...TAG YOU'RE IT!
My Mom is the one with the assets, stepfather 0. #1 stepsibling has been trying to get Mom's $$$ for over a year now by having the State take care of her father meaning I'd have to pay down Mom's $$$ she worked and saved for just this point in her life. I now have to get an "asset" divorce for Mom so I'm able to keep their grubby fingers off the money tree. No one gets what my Mom worked for and is hers sole/separate. Check with elder law attorney, research State laws (I did that for over 5 years and still do). DO NOT TAKE 1 SINGLE ANSWER AS THE TRUTH. DO NOT, REPEAT DO NOT TAKE OUT A REVERSE MORTGAGE BECAUSE IT'S THE SAME THING AS STATE ASSISTANCE AND THE BANK WILL COME AFTER YOU FOR REPAYMENT. Many banks will not do reverse mortgage because of this, if they can't get the money back then foreclosure. We have a house two houses from ours. Daughters talked Mom into reverse mortgage=foreclosure when Mom died. The house is being renovated and is on the market for $18.000. The houses on our street....valued over $500.000. Good luck
Your state has filial laws so even if you didn’t sign anything saying you would be financially reaponsible, the state may come after you and force you to pay for your moms care if and when she runs out of money. They usually have to determine that you can afford to pay for her care though, before they can come after you.
Many thanks for this info. I googled an AARP article on this and posted above. I had NO IDEA this exists, and this is why this forum is invaluable. Apparently it is seldom implemented, but when it is it is almost always a care facility that does it. I would be seeing an Elder Law Attorney if I had an elder in assisted living/nursing home. Medicaid recovery is one thing. This is quite another and could bankrupt a child.
If you are worried about your mother running out of money to pay for Assisted Living, as is indicated in your profile, make sure that the facilities you are interested in will accept Medicaid after a certain period of time as a private pay client.
Do not sign ANYTHING that indicates financial responsibility. Have your mother sign, even if she can only make a mark. Or consult with an eldercare attorney on how to sign as your mother's Power of Attorney if you have it.
Cwillie, check into filial responsibility laws some state have on books. As I understand it, it is not Medicaid/gov't that would come after the children, at least not at this time, but private parties like care facilities.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
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Unfortunately, many times children sign a form saying they will be responsible because of the way it is presented to them at the time of admission. Often the children were not aware that is what they were signing.
Again, tell them ALF to show you where you agreed to pay.
"These laws have not been relied upon for many years because they were less important after Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid were enacted to offer a safety net to seniors. However, such laws have recently been used to attempt to force children to reimburse care providers for their parents’ nursing home bills. As the baby boomer generation ages and requires more and more long-term care services and supports, the enforcement of filial support laws will likely increase as care providers attempt to recoup outlays for elder care.
For example, in a 2012 Pennsylvania case (Health Care & Retirement Corporation of America v. Pittas), the court held that a son of an elderly woman who left the country owing $93,000 to her nursing home is liable for her bill under the Pennsylvania filial responsibility law. The mother had actually filed an application for Medicaid, but it was still pending at the time of this case. Thus, the bill for her care had to be paid for privately and the nursing home brought the lawsuit against her adult son. It did not matter that the adult child did not sign the admission form for his mother; his responsibility was based solely on his relationship to the debtor."
I recall reading about that PA case - Note that the son DID NOT sign anything!! Also note, mom skipped out of the country. So while it is BEST to include your POA status if/when signing for anyone, understand that this may make no difference whatsoever (for those in the remaining filial states)!
It sounds like these remaining laws on the books are rarely used, but certainly you can't rely on that. Given the tsunami of dementia cases and how difficult it is to keep LOs at home with this (or other major debilitating medical issues), one must beware of this if you live in one of those states. I think they focus more on well-to-do families who just want 'we the taxpayers' to pay so they don't have to, but there is no guarantee on who they will attempt to bleed. It would be best to consult with an Elder Care attorney, one who is well versed in Medicaid and AL/NH in general.
Previously about 45 states had these laws (dated back to ancient rules!!!) - I do see that Wikipedia lists NH but Attorney Heiser's list does not. In looking that up, I found an article written in 2013 (SIX YEARS AGO, comon' Wikipedia, get with the times!) in which they state the law was repealed (PHEW! Not that I am worried, we should have enough in her trust fund to cover many more years and she is almost 96 now!)
Although I think our ECA set up everything with the intent to file for Medicaid if mom ever needed a NH, I am a firm believer that the person's remaining assets should PAY for the NH - much as I would like to inherit something, it is HER money and was saved by my parents for any eventual need. Medicaid should ONLY be for those who have NO assets, and haven't given them away previously! Protecting the communal spouse is also key if/when using Medicaid. Otherwise the system will go broke and we all end up paying for that care for others via taxes/increased taxes.
Now, if mom WERE to outlive the remaining assets, I certainly cannot afford to make those payments! I am retired, on fixed income and don't even have enough to cover my own current bills, much less her MC or possible NH!!!
“States with filial responsibility laws. Alaska, Arkansas, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada (Nevada law only addresses support of children and not support of parents.”
Seems I live in a State that has these laws but I have never heard of anyone being made to pay. What I just read was that children that have the resources are made to pay. Then, they have to find you. If Mom is in a state that has the law and you are in the state that doesn't are you responsible?
Me personally, I would tell them to sue me. The cost of bringing a lawsuit may not be in their best interest. These laws are outdated. It was to insure children provided support for parents that were impoverish. Making sure they had shelter, food, clothing and medical.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_responsibility_laws
Just make sure what you sign. It should always be as a representative. If you have POA make sure that is included in ur signature.
If your mother (or you as her representative, on her behalf) enters a contract for services with a facility, and she fails to pay or runs out of money, you are not liable in ordinary contractual terms. You are not party to the contract.
But. If her funding is taken over by Medicaid, or if the facility continues to support your mother because, say, they cannot legally discharge her, then the filial responsibility laws would allow these organisations - which have already incurred the cost of providing your mother's care - to look at their options for recovering those costs, which would include finding out whether her children can be required to meet them or at least contribute towards them.
The subject has been making headlines for a while, not only in the US (other countries have similar laws, some far more draconian). But I've just spent another half hour on it in case there have been more worrying cases recently, and it's still true - I cannot find a case which has not involved exceptionally wealthy children whose only apparent reason for not supporting their indigent parent was that they preferred that someone else should pay.
Average families with average incomes are not being forced into poverty by collections agencies chasing up their parents' ALF fees.
You are right to be circumspect, and you should be cautious because it has been known for facilities to talk very fast when it comes to signing the paperwork so that people have inadvertently accepted personal liability for their parent's fees - it shouldn't happen, but it does. But there are watertight ways to avoid that problem, and you mustn't let it put you off finding the right level of care for your mother.
How far have you got in terms of researching your options?
Although there are still many states with old filial laws still on the books, it is rare for them to be used. The only case I have heard of was the one in PA, one of the states with filial laws. In that case, the mother was cared for in a NH, Medicaid was applied for but hadn't been approved when she left and went back to Greece. So the NH got nothing and sued her son, who had NOT signed ANY paperwork. The courts, thus far, found in favor of the facility.
Private pay is a bigger concern, and if they choose to use the filial laws, POA used or not, they *could* attempt to bleed you. Thankfully NH, where we live, repealed their filial law back in 2013!
When my mother passed, we got a letter from a bill collector that she owed the hospital and it was our responsibility to pay. So I took the letter to the hospital and they tore it up. It was bogus. My mother owed nothing to the hospital.
These are old laws before Medicaid. Now we have Medicaid, family is not usually responsible.
Paying for Mom: Little-Known Laws Force Families to Fund Parents’ Care, family, parents, caregiving, laws, piety, seniors, nursing home, elders, finances, benefits - AARP Bulletin Today
It all depends on what assistance program you have and State law.
My home State, to get assistance from the State your parents must be at the poverty level, meaning if they have great assets they must pay down until they have hit that property line.
Then the Medicaid/State assistance comes into play. NOW, if they have a home you will not be able to sell it as the State will now place a lien and when the last spouse dies, the State sells the house and if it's not enough to pay back the money the State "helped" you with....THEN THE STATE HAS THE RIGHT TO GO AFTER ANY/ALL ADULT CHILDREN TO PAY.
So, if you're the only one with any equity in your home, investments etc and the others have nothing...TAG YOU'RE IT!
My Mom is the one with the assets, stepfather 0. #1 stepsibling has been trying to get Mom's $$$ for over a year now by having the State take care of her father meaning I'd have to pay down Mom's $$$ she worked and saved for just this point in her life.
I now have to get an "asset" divorce for Mom so I'm able to keep their grubby fingers off the money tree. No one gets what my Mom worked for and is hers sole/separate.
Check with elder law attorney, research State laws (I did that for over 5 years and still do).
DO NOT TAKE 1 SINGLE ANSWER AS THE TRUTH.
DO NOT, REPEAT DO NOT TAKE OUT A REVERSE MORTGAGE BECAUSE IT'S THE SAME THING AS STATE ASSISTANCE AND THE BANK WILL COME AFTER YOU FOR REPAYMENT.
Many banks will not do reverse mortgage because of this, if they can't get the money back then foreclosure.
We have a house two houses from ours. Daughters talked Mom into reverse mortgage=foreclosure when Mom died. The house is being renovated and is on the market for $18.000. The houses on our street....valued over $500.000.
Good luck
Medicaid recovery is one thing. This is quite another and could bankrupt a child.
Do not sign ANYTHING that indicates financial responsibility. Have your mother sign, even if she can only make a mark. Or consult with an eldercare attorney on how to sign as your mother's Power of Attorney if you have it.