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16 months ago I posted--and mother's place looks worse than ever. She doesn't care, so I have had to let go my ideal of having her in a CLEAN place. It's safe, but such a mess. Drives me up the wall....but although she states she has "severe claustrophobia"--you can't have more than 2 people in any room at a given time, every room is packed with furniture and knick-knacks. More every week. She won't throw away or give away a single thing. Could I force mother to allow outside help? No, but I can, and have suggested she hire a once a week "maid" to keep up on top of things. She thinks my SIL should do it, as she lives in her home....but SIL doesn't even poke her head in to say hi once a week. Mother might accept help if we referred to the help as a "maid". She desperately needs someone to clean, and she refuses to let me or my sisters do anything anymore. Again, no, I have never seen a "good" situation where someone is "forced" to do anything.
Makes me more determined than ever to NEVER be a burden to my kids. Never. I have promised my daughters I will NOT live with them. I think they appreciate that. My son doesn't even talk to me anymore, so that's not an issue.
galoshes, it seems as though you did what needed to be done. There's a big difference between an elder who has a clear mind but simply doesn't want to move and one with a cognitive disorder or mental health issues. In your case, there was no choice and likely your mom's become perfectly happy where she is. I congratulate you! Carol
We had to move mom to assisted living. She was very resistant, so we signed her up, moved her things in then drove her over. She was mad, but she never could connect the dots, to just call a cab and leave. Her mind just wasn't working like that anymore. Now, I wouldn't say this is right for everyone, lots of the folks there went voluntarily, but unfortunately, our mom would have never been rational about it. There were always some underlying mental health issues.
When I go visit Mother, a couple of times a week, I will surreptitiously also do some cleaning. She is not very mobile, so she just chatters away while I am cleaning around the toilet or doing some dusting...I also make sure that her eating surfaces get sanitized as she is becoming more and more careless about things like cross contaminating meat and veggies on the same cutting board. She never was a great housekeeper, so having me do this for her is very reminiscent of the old days. She's something of a hoarder, so I also check for tripping hazards, try to clean up after her (disgusting) bird cage...if she ever went anywhere for more than a few hours I would gut the place and really deep clean, but that's not possible. She "thinks" she is paying my niece (with whose family she lives) to clean, but a 14 yo doesn't clean well. She'd NEVER let an outsider in, so I do what I can. I agree with the younger generation being better at being cross trained. My 63 yo hubby can't run a load of dishes, the vacuum or do yard care. In his mind, all that work is women's work. Answer: you CAN'T force help on someone. Just keep the place sanitary as you can and let the dust fly, if need be.
A lot of times, our family member is embarrassed to have a stranger or an opposite gender aide help with personal care. I know I would hate it! What helped our family was when we used a personal care garment that's designed for showers , changing cloths or bed baths. It covers personal body areas and it removes fear of dignity loss. It's called an Honor Guard. You can find it online from Dignity Resource Council. Hope this helps.
Llamalover47, one thing I have noticed over the decades, whenever someone uses the term "old maid" for an unmarried woman it is viewed as negative... but if that person was an unmarried male and labeled "bachelor", that was viewed as positive.
Hi Rosie, this must be very difficult for you. I have seen so many elderly living in dirty conditions and don't want you to change a thing. I think as long as the bathroom and kitchen are clean and there is no rotting meat on plates in living room, the dust can wait. But you said dangerous condition what do you mean by that. Dirty dangerous or mold broken steps not showering dangerous?
I have belief that if a person's pride can stay in tact we have accomplished much. That is why instead of caregiver I refer to myself as personal assistant for living or ( pal) for short. If dad would be up to hiring a pal, perhaps a male one who could start out just being a buddy, hanging out watching old movies then slowly start helping with clean up in a subtle way that might work. Male assistants (pals) are better received by men sometimes. Just a tgought. That's why I call by site palcaregivers. I would much rather hire a personal assistant than a caregiver even though they are one and the same. Hope things work out. Keep in touch and let us know. We learn from each other. Ruth Anne
freqflyer: Anyone can become a couch potato and let the work pile up around them! My mother's neighbor deceased 2 weeks short of his 101st birthday...lived with his "old maid" 60 y.o. daughter, who kept a TOXIC household. That woman never owned a dust rag let me tell you!
My Mom [now 97] just a few years ago starting teaching Dad to help her do some housekeeping.... he wasn't all into it because it was so boring.... no kidding, Dad, welcome to my world :P
But Mom got Dad to use the vacuum cleaner, got him to wash the dishes, and even learn how to use the washing machine. All in all, Mom should have done that the first day Dad retired... thus giving her a sense of retirement from some of the never ending household chores.
I believe our much younger generation is being cross trained with the males helping with the housework and child care like it is the thing to do, and the females helping doing yardwork and car maintenance.... I see it in my neighborhood with the young couples.
My sig other thinks gremlins come out at night and do all the cleaning... that's because he was spoiled by his mother, and his late wife. I remember back when he was selling his home, his Realtor use to keep calling me asking me to convince him [he was only 60 at the time] to hire a cleaning service because the house was becoming really dirty. I was living back East at the time. Hey, he had time to go to the gym, thus he had time to do some cleaning!!
Another strategy for elders who are cognitively healthy but will/won't take action due to fear, denial, stubbornness, lack of energy to change, etc - saw my brother, who is an MD, do this with my Mom... He'd sit down with her, be very "professional" (serious, not "emotional") and start the conversation with, "I know you're an intelligent woman..." I could see her sitting up straighter immediately... "Here's the situation we're dealing with as I see it... XYZ has to be done... I know you can handle this...." She would invariably "rise to the occasion." Some of it was to look competent for "my son the doctor," some of it was just that he reminded her she was "an intelligent woman" (which she was) and that gave her access to that part of herself and allow the "reasonableness" to take center stage.
I like the creative solutions that Renee offered. I have found myself that if you see through the stubbornness to what your FIL thinks he really needs (help around the house, etc) you can break down barriers.
Sometimes I try to compromise and satisfy at least part of a request...for instance my Dad may ask for a male health care worker to assist him, or I know that he has difficulty with accents so I try to find someone who is a native speaker of English. I think it makes him feel like he has some amount of say in the decision.
Also introducing aides as friends or at least friends of the family really works, or hanging around during the meet and greet of new aides. Some people as Renee says will just have a knack with your FIL and some won't so my motto was always to try everything until something works. Sometimes I just tried the same exact thing a second time and it worked, since my Dad has dementia.
My daughter is an RN in a rehab/nursing facility. She says you need to make the resident feel he has made the decision. Lets say he doesn't want to get a shower. Renee would say "don't u think you'd feel better if u were all clean and changed into clean clothes." See, u are allowing them ti decide.
I wonder if when they reach the stage of intensely declining health, loss of independence and other ravages of age, if they just don't care any more ... because a clean house doesn't provide the pleasure that, say, getting into a car and driving somewhere by oneself, or being able to walk without assistance, and other old age sacrifices can offer.
I haven't been sick very often, but when I am, the last thing on my mind is cleaning. When I feel better, it's different. But for those who aren't going to get better, what would it really be like to face so much physical and often mental limitation? What does a clean house have to offer at their stage of deteriorating life?
I'm not justifying it, just trying to understand it....and keeping notes for myself to read in 10 to 20 years, if I last that long.
Elders don't have the mindset to know what they need. ..that and stubbornness and the loss of independence that we all will face at some point. I had to leave my Maryland home and move in with my mother in Massachusetts. I would have to listen to the "you wait and see" story 1, 001 times over! My response="yes, I'll be handing my car keys over to my daughter. " But who knows, I might become the same belligerent woman. In that case, I told my daughter to kick me in the butt!
Hate to say this but real not much you can do have people drop by for safety cks is about it and hate to say this a good part of the world and its people are not so clean and there happy so if he's happy good as happy people seem to live longer then the forced clean
I hired a caregiver for my Dad and he promptly fired her. I admit I used a little guilt. I told him I have to take care of my own kids and I am stretched too thin taking care of him too. He finally hired a cleaning service on his own. He is stubborn about many things. I am the only family member nearby. It's hard. I try to accept that I do my best and cannot force my Dad to do anything.
Rosie, you can use aging.gov or eldercare.gov to find your local area agency on aging. They will almost certainly tell you to call Adult Protective Services (APS).
In my own experience, APS is usually interested in two issues. One is whether your father is managing his needs for safety, shelter, food, housing, and medical care adequately. The other is whether he has the mental capacity to assess his situation and accept risks.
Even if he's found to be lacking mental capacity (meaning, he has dementia), it is quite hard to "force" an older person to do something; much better to try to coax or persuade. Among other things, I see older people get cognitively worse when they are forced, because the stress and distress makes their dementia symptoms worse.
Sometimes an older person accepts help once it's framed as the main way we can enable them to keep living in their own home. It's tricky if they have dementia however.
(SIgh) My FIL was a very messy, yet very proud man. His house was disgusting. He ate out all of his meals, so as not to have to do dishes. BUT he never (to my knowledge) cleaned the bathroom or kitchen, nor did he dust or run a vacuum. Divorced after 42 years from the fussiest housekeeper on the planet--he rebelled and went his own way. My SIL and I took turn once a month or so, going to "visit" and while we were there, doing some light cleaning. He never objected, but he also never "noticed". He pretty much stayed in the LR and watched TV when he was home. He had leukemia and spent MANY nights in the hospital. On those occasions, one of us (usually me) would go and try to deep clean. Again, he never noticed. Finally during his end-stage (the last 4-5 months) when he was so weak he really could barely walk, he did finally allow a home heath agency in. He was NOT happy about it, and half the time when they'd come he would have already found a buddy to take him to his favorite coffee shop and he wouldn't be home. He had meals on wheels, too, but was the same. He'd skip out. Made us so mad, because MOW people are volunteers!! We never forced him to get help, it was his dr who planted the seed of thought in his mind, and eventually he'd see the light. After he died, I took the initiative to get his condo ready to sell. It took me 2 months of 40+ hrs per week to de-junk, clean and re-do the place to be sold. I threw out 3 dumpsters full of garbage. He had stashed over 20,000 gold balls all over the house (he lived next door to a golf course)..and the DUST. Burned out the vacuum the first day. 2" deep dust on every flat surface. In retrospect, I wish I had just said on a weekly basis, "Hey, dad, I'm bringing you lunch and I'm going to hang around and chat with you and clean a little". I know he would have been fine with that--cleaning 15 years worth of junk at once was daunting. Now I am in the same place with my mother. I will go up once a month and clean up after her filthy birds (for her health's sake!!) and dust up high and wipe down what I can. She's a little hoarder and I can't change that, but I can make sure her counters are clean and she can move around as much as she needs to. No, she would NEVER allow just anyone in to clean. Many elders are very aware they are not living in clean environments, but to hire someone to do what they cannot/will not do is beyond their scope.
I think this is one of the thorny and sometimes unsolvable issues of caregiving, when the elder's house needs attention, the elder either doesn't think it does or can't do it him or herself and doesn't want to bring some one in.
A neighbor who cared for her now deceased husband mentioned she once had to tell her husband "there are two of us in this situation." I thought that was so enlightening, so simple, yet so profound.
Our relative expects care and can be very demanding at times. Yet there is often a lack of cooperation and recognition of the difficulties or providing that care, as well as the health consequences to the caregiver.
I feel strongly that if someone expects care, then that someone needs to be willing to acknowledge that the caregiver has the right to establish terms and conditions as well. And one of those is that the environment needs to be safe for both parties.
Sometimes it takes a bit of bluntness to get the message across...unfortunately.
My dad is the same way. He lives alone and I worry about him. He says if I hire help he will fire them. I believe him but have also thought of doing that but I cannot afford to hire someone myself and would have to pay for it from his account. I don't want to lie to him and run the chance of breaking his trust. So, for me, it's not something I want to do now. There was a friend (friend of my ex SIL) who needed money and went to dad and asked for a job helping him (and me) around the house (she told him she talked to me and that I said I needed help; which is true. I have RA and cannot do the physical work I used to do). He said he didn't care if the house was clean, it wasn't dirty and he didn't need help and neither did I !
ReneeMary, I want to thank you for you comment "think beyond force." When I read that word I sometimes feel like digging in my heels for the elder involved. Naturally, I know the desperation of the caregiver - I have had situations where it seems like the solution was going to have to be "force" - yet that is such a harsh word that negates the dignity of the elder. Most people of any age don't respond well to force.
Finding a trusted person is ideal (generally outside of the family). If that doesn't work, then an agency like the Area Agency on Aging or another agency in your area (aging.gov will get you there).
If dementia is involved sometimes force is necessary but it's best to try every other route first. Otherwise you have to get legal authority and that's a long road (as it should be).
The wonderful people on this site have so much wisdom to pass on, Rose. Keep reading. Carol
Think beyond "force." Is there someone he likes and trusts? My father's home health care nurse, a sweet pretty woman who discussed with him how to can vegetables (an interest they shared) on several visits, actually got down on her knees in front of him, looked up at him with her big blue eyes and blond ringlets, and said "PLEASE Joe, let me send in the home health aide! (for his personal care). That actually worked with this extremely private,dignified and stubborn man.... Something I thought would never happen! Another strategy is to say you're coming over to clean (cook, do some household repairs, whatever) and let him know you're bringing a "friend" with you to help. Present that as "great news!" And focus on something he really wants to have done or something that he'll recognize as being very convenient for him. Tell the "friend" that her job is to interact with him as much as possible and make him comfortable with her/him. Perhaps you'll have to leave the house briefly to "get something" and they can have some alone time, not too long. In this way, he might learn to trust someone who can help. With my mom, I stayed in the house the first few times a new caregiver started. That was reassuring for both of us. They are vulnerable and the know it.
This is so sad to watch, Rosie. As the others have said, people don't give up their rights just because they are old. But sometimes people from outside can convince them to make changes.
If you go up to the top to the senior living section and then click on home care you can enter your zip code and find home care options in your local area. See what is offered and you will be contacted by a careadvisor to guide you in the right direction. Let the contact know of the situation and they can connect you with the right person.
Sadly, sometimes we have to wait it out until something dire happens. One bright side is that he's lived until 90 and done it his own way. That isn't all bad. Good luck finding assistance, don't hesitate to talk to someone no matter what at least you will know you have tried. Take care, Carol
Hi rosie, this must be frustrating and scary, I'm sorry. As dustien says, call that agency and ask them how concerned people like you can contrive a visit from some outside party - who will be able to convey how your FIL's situation looks, this may get his attention. This isn't easy, but it sounds like you (your husband) have to risk his getting angry at you. He's not completely rational, or else you wouldn't want to intervene, so in a way you can't really worry about what he thinks or feels about it.
That's the age old question...how to get an elder who desperately needs help the help they need. I'd suggest you look into what the state you live in has to offer seniors, like an area agency on aging. They have resources you might be able to use, and if you report that they are living in a dirty dangerous situation, they might be willing to check it out. If it's that bad, maybe getting the fire department involved or whoever in charge of maintaining city ordinances.
If the senior is able to talk and think for themselves, even if you think they might not be able to think soundly, then it's very difficult to force them to do anything. At no time do we give up our rights as free peoples to anyone, unless the courts force us to, or unless we are willing...even when we're 90 years old. But sometimes someone from the outside can push the issue to the point that they then realize that it might be time for a change... or not. You have to try something though..for your own piece of mind. At least then you can say you did your best...
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Could I force mother to allow outside help? No, but I can, and have suggested she hire a once a week "maid" to keep up on top of things. She thinks my SIL should do it, as she lives in her home....but SIL doesn't even poke her head in to say hi once a week. Mother might accept help if we referred to the help as a "maid". She desperately needs someone to clean, and she refuses to let me or my sisters do anything anymore. Again, no, I have never seen a "good" situation where someone is "forced" to do anything.
Makes me more determined than ever to NEVER be a burden to my kids. Never. I have promised my daughters I will NOT live with them. I think they appreciate that. My son doesn't even talk to me anymore, so that's not an issue.
Carol
Answer: you CAN'T force help on someone. Just keep the place sanitary as you can and let the dust fly, if need be.
I have belief that if a person's pride can stay in tact we have accomplished much. That is why instead of caregiver I refer to myself as personal assistant for living or ( pal) for short. If dad would be up to hiring a pal, perhaps a male one who could start out just being a buddy, hanging out watching old movies then slowly start helping with clean up in a subtle way that might work. Male assistants (pals) are better received by men sometimes. Just a tgought. That's why I call by site palcaregivers. I would much rather hire a personal assistant than a caregiver even though they are one and the same. Hope things work out. Keep in touch and let us know. We learn from each other. Ruth Anne
But Mom got Dad to use the vacuum cleaner, got him to wash the dishes, and even learn how to use the washing machine. All in all, Mom should have done that the first day Dad retired... thus giving her a sense of retirement from some of the never ending household chores.
I believe our much younger generation is being cross trained with the males helping with the housework and child care like it is the thing to do, and the females helping doing yardwork and car maintenance.... I see it in my neighborhood with the young couples.
My sig other thinks gremlins come out at night and do all the cleaning... that's because he was spoiled by his mother, and his late wife. I remember back when he was selling his home, his Realtor use to keep calling me asking me to convince him [he was only 60 at the time] to hire a cleaning service because the house was becoming really dirty. I was living back East at the time. Hey, he had time to go to the gym, thus he had time to do some cleaning!!
Write more later
Sometimes I try to compromise and satisfy at least part of a request...for instance my Dad may ask for a male health care worker to assist him, or I know that he has difficulty with accents so I try to find someone who is a native speaker of English. I think it makes him feel like he has some amount of say in the decision.
Also introducing aides as friends or at least friends of the family really works, or hanging around during the meet and greet of new aides. Some people as Renee says will just have a knack with your FIL and some won't so my motto was always to try everything until something works. Sometimes I just tried the same exact thing a second time and it worked, since my Dad has dementia.
I haven't been sick very often, but when I am, the last thing on my mind is cleaning. When I feel better, it's different. But for those who aren't going to get better, what would it really be like to face so much physical and often mental limitation? What does a clean house have to offer at their stage of deteriorating life?
I'm not justifying it, just trying to understand it....and keeping notes for myself to read in 10 to 20 years, if I last that long.
In my own experience, APS is usually interested in two issues. One is whether your father is managing his needs for safety, shelter, food, housing, and medical care adequately. The other is whether he has the mental capacity to assess his situation and accept risks.
Even if he's found to be lacking mental capacity (meaning, he has dementia), it is quite hard to "force" an older person to do something; much better to try to coax or persuade. Among other things, I see older people get cognitively worse when they are forced, because the stress and distress makes their dementia symptoms worse.
Sometimes an older person accepts help once it's framed as the main way we can enable them to keep living in their own home. It's tricky if they have dementia however.
Good luck!
My SIL and I took turn once a month or so, going to "visit" and while we were there, doing some light cleaning. He never objected, but he also never "noticed". He pretty much stayed in the LR and watched TV when he was home. He had leukemia and spent MANY nights in the hospital. On those occasions, one of us (usually me) would go and try to deep clean. Again, he never noticed. Finally during his end-stage (the last 4-5 months) when he was so weak he really could barely walk, he did finally allow a home heath agency in. He was NOT happy about it, and half the time when they'd come he would have already found a buddy to take him to his favorite coffee shop and he wouldn't be home. He had meals on wheels, too, but was the same. He'd skip out. Made us so mad, because MOW people are volunteers!! We never forced him to get help, it was his dr who planted the seed of thought in his mind, and eventually he'd see the light. After he died, I took the initiative to get his condo ready to sell. It took me 2 months of 40+ hrs per week to de-junk, clean and re-do the place to be sold. I threw out 3 dumpsters full of garbage. He had stashed over 20,000 gold balls all over the house (he lived next door to a golf course)..and the DUST. Burned out the vacuum the first day. 2" deep dust on every flat surface. In retrospect, I wish I had just said on a weekly basis, "Hey, dad, I'm bringing you lunch and I'm going to hang around and chat with you and clean a little". I know he would have been fine with that--cleaning 15 years worth of junk at once was daunting.
Now I am in the same place with my mother. I will go up once a month and clean up after her filthy birds (for her health's sake!!) and dust up high and wipe down what I can. She's a little hoarder and I can't change that, but I can make sure her counters are clean and she can move around as much as she needs to. No, she would NEVER allow just anyone in to clean. Many elders are very aware they are not living in clean environments, but to hire someone to do what they cannot/will not do is beyond their scope.
A neighbor who cared for her now deceased husband mentioned she once had to tell her husband "there are two of us in this situation." I thought that was so enlightening, so simple, yet so profound.
Our relative expects care and can be very demanding at times. Yet there is often a lack of cooperation and recognition of the difficulties or providing that care, as well as the health consequences to the caregiver.
I feel strongly that if someone expects care, then that someone needs to be willing to acknowledge that the caregiver has the right to establish terms and conditions as well. And one of those is that the environment needs to be safe for both parties.
Sometimes it takes a bit of bluntness to get the message across...unfortunately.
Carol: I couldn't find the website you mentioned. Is there more to it, or could you post the complete link?
Finding a trusted person is ideal (generally outside of the family). If that doesn't work, then an agency like the Area Agency on Aging or another agency in your area (aging.gov will get you there).
If dementia is involved sometimes force is necessary but it's best to try every other route first. Otherwise you have to get legal authority and that's a long road (as it should be).
The wonderful people on this site have so much wisdom to pass on, Rose. Keep reading.
Carol
If you go up to the top to the senior living section and then click on home care you can enter your zip code and find home care options in your local area. See what is offered and you will be contacted by a careadvisor to guide you in the right direction. Let the contact know of the situation and they can connect you with the right person.
Sadly, sometimes we have to wait it out until something dire happens. One bright side is that he's lived until 90 and done it his own way. That isn't all bad. Good luck finding assistance, don't hesitate to talk to someone no matter what at least you will know you have tried.
Take care,
Carol
If the senior is able to talk and think for themselves, even if you think they might not be able to think soundly, then it's very difficult to force them to do anything. At no time do we give up our rights as free peoples to anyone, unless the courts force us to, or unless we are willing...even when we're 90 years old. But sometimes someone from the outside can push the issue to the point that they then realize that it might be time for a change... or not. You have to try something though..for your own piece of mind. At least then you can say you did your best...