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What I mean is, if a loved one is by nature, not narcissistic, can dementia make that person become that way, or if they were always narcissistic, is it more pronounced with dementia?
Narcissism has become the buzz word of the decade and is over applied to all kinds of difficult behaviours. Think of it as more like they have regressed to a childlike state - they have limited autonomy, they have lost many of their social filters, their world has become smaller and therefor their personal issues dominate their thoughts, and they may find it hard to communicate effectively or even identify what the problem is so they may be prone to meltdowns. Don't forget that the brain is damaged in much the same way as someone who has had a traumatic brain injury.
Narcissism still exists regardless of the elderly afflicted with dementia, regressing back to a childlike state. If they were self absorbed and selfish in their youth, I can't see that changing when they get older. I guess I'm speaking from personal experience, having a father who has always been manipulative and controlling with all of us. Now these traits have intensified to the point where it all about him, every conversation, every situation, reverts back to him. No matter what we talk about. It's me me me or I did this or this happened to me. So I choose now to tell him as little as possible about anything that goes on in our lives. Because he just doesn't want to know.
I agree with cwillie. There is a certain amount of self-focus and regression that comes with the aging process that is natural. And then there is real narcissism. My grandmother has the first. She shows all of the classic signs of the self focus and regression to childlike behaviors, some 'tantrum' like acting out, pouting, loss of social filters, says whatever comes to mind, etc. But she has empathy, shows love, genuinely cares about other people. She hasn't lost that ability even as her world has narrowed. My FIL on the other hand, is a true narcissist. He has always been this way and it is getting worse the older he gets. He has narrowed his world down to his children and their spouses. Even his grands will rarely be in his presence. He has no empathy - he does not possess the ability to empathize. He cannot understand how his behaviors impact others. He cannot understand that others do not exist to facilitate HIS life. In HIS reality, everyone else exists to ensure that his life is facilitated to his standards. He gaslights, he bullies, he abuses. He is the textbook definition of a narcissist. But that did not come on by virtue of aging. It HAS been made worse however as a result of aging.
So I would definitely say it has to do with whether they were already a true narcissist BEFORE they got older or if the behavior is new.
I don’t believe it’s more prevalent just due to aging. My dad certainly wasn’t a narcissist, he always cared about others and showed both concern and appreciation for everyone. But what did happen is what I think is common. His health issues increased, problems without fixes mounted, he lost many friends and family, he could do less and go less, he became filled with anxiety and fear, he saw his world shrinking. So all that caused him to be more self centered. One day sooner than later we’ll all be there and sadly, know exactly what this feels like. We all may understand the change to thinking of ourselves, maybe even be rude and uncooperative. Aging isn’t for sissies
Maybe this is happening to my Dad. I suspect it is. He's not the man I grew up with. I'm trying give to cope with the self involvement and other issues.
Yes, in general dementia makes one quite "self" centers and motivated. All of the stops are off that normally make us think about others. We are not truly capable of that. All our natural inhibitions go away. We become paranoid. What is meant as "help" is often seen as losses, of control of our rights, and fears of other losses.
I am not sure about how dementia effects a person being kind or not. My grandma or my husband’s grandmother did not have dementia but I find if a person was nice in their younger years, they generally remain kind. If they were mean in their youth they stay mean.
I asked my MIL if her mom was mean because she was having a hard time accepting getting older. Her response to me was, “My mom has always been mean ever since I was a young child!”
My mom always said that my grandmother was a sweet woman and she certainly was sweet in her older years.
Who they were before the dementia set in becomes more pronounced with the dementia because the mask falls off. They're no longer able to put up a facade and the filter erodes. My mother was always mean spirited and self centered. Now with moderately advanced dementia, she's SO mean and miserable it's insufferable to deal with her. I cringe at what comes out of her mouth, yet she sees nothing wrong with her toxic words. She's just a whole lot MORE of what she has always been.
It isn't "narcissism" any more than a toddler is narcissistic. It is a world becoming smaller and smaller and not being able to comprehend the wide needs of others. It is BRAIN DEATH.
Cashew, for SOME people I think that is true. Dementia robs a lot of people of who they are absolutely. But not every senior is dealing with dementia. My FIL has ALWAYS been like this. For him it is most certainly narcissism and it is most definitely made worse by the natural process of aging, the limitations, the narrowing of his world and his narcissistic supply. I don't apply the term narcissist to people lightly because I have actually experienced life with one and there is definitely a difference between selfish behaviors and a true narcissist.
My MIL is completely and utterly obsessed with herself and has always been this way.
Aging (she's 90) has just made her 'filter' disappear completely, so the things she used to just 'think' now come flying out of her mouth w/o regard to who she hurts or what she says.
She's not sick, in fact, she's in remarkably good health. So it's not illness that she's complaining about--it's EVERYTHING.
Somehow, EVERYTHING is about her. She's not going to change, so we keep contact to an absolute minimum. In fact, I have not seen nor spoken to her for over a year.
As others have said, it's their brains deteriorating. It's also the misuse/misunderstanding of the term "narcissism."
Think about it -- once people become elderly, the multitasking of caring for others in addition to oneself becomes impossible. Eventually, caring for oneself is too much of a burden, too, but your survival instinct says someone has to make sure you're cared for, so you demand others do it. That's what people like to call narcissism. (It isn't, but that's beside the point.)
Compassion and patience are the best way to handle the situation. If there was ever a time to put yourself in someone else's shoes, this is it.
I agree to a point. But true narcissists age, they become elderly and experience the same things that others do as they age. The difference is that they NEVER had any of the compassion or empathy themselves and are frequently abusive. It it SO much easier to take a deep breath and have compassion for my grandmother because her narrowed focus is strictly based on age and circumstances and she has shown me love my entire life. My FIL was abusive to my husband and his sister their entire lives and is positively gleeful that his physical care now falls to them. I could talk for days but sufficed to say it is VERY different. It is clearly intentional and he glories in degrading them when they are all he has left. I think we need to differentiate between normalized aging self-focus and clinical narcissism because they are very different and there are elderly narcissists who make the lives of their families a living hell.
Yes. Narcissism is self preoccupation and those who have illnesses and pain are bodily preoccupied. The elderly worry that each ache may be a sign that the end of their lives is near. Many are basically scared to death and take it out on those around them. Depression often manifests as anger and irritability as well as seeming selfishness. I liked a book called Counting on Kindness where they write about an elderly woman waiting for her daughter to come. She waited and waited by the window all day and couldn’t really empathize with her daughter’s busy life or inability to spend more time or come on time. All she felt was her own loneliness and inability to function. Her daughter tried to tidy up and the mother just couldn’t point out the crumbs under the table. She had to be grateful for whatever she got. The mother remembered when she could do things for herself and didn’t have to count on kindness.
I think every person who is not elderly today should take some serious self-reflection and consider how they treat others. Their family, their kids, their friends, etc... No person who grew up with selfish or abusive parents should ever feel a moment of guilt if they drop them in a nursing home when they can no longer do for themselves.
No one should expect to get more than they were willing to give in this life.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
My FIL on the other hand, is a true narcissist. He has always been this way and it is getting worse the older he gets. He has narrowed his world down to his children and their spouses. Even his grands will rarely be in his presence. He has no empathy - he does not possess the ability to empathize. He cannot understand how his behaviors impact others. He cannot understand that others do not exist to facilitate HIS life. In HIS reality, everyone else exists to ensure that his life is facilitated to his standards. He gaslights, he bullies, he abuses. He is the textbook definition of a narcissist. But that did not come on by virtue of aging. It HAS been made worse however as a result of aging.
So I would definitely say it has to do with whether they were already a true narcissist BEFORE they got older or if the behavior is new.
I'm trying give to cope with the self involvement and other issues.
I asked my MIL if her mom was mean because she was having a hard time accepting getting older. Her response to me was, “My mom has always been mean ever since I was a young child!”
My mom always said that my grandmother was a sweet woman and she certainly was sweet in her older years.
She has zero ability any longer to understand the needs of others.
She sees those around her solely as means to take care of Her needs.
Mom VERY MUCH reminds me of my two year old grandson. He actually, though, is beginning to have empathy for and demonstrates love to others.
It's REALLY hard to watch my mother like this. Sigh.
You are right. Dementia will make an already insufferable, selfish, mean-spirited person even worse.
Just plain old age will do it too.
It is a world becoming smaller and smaller and not being able to comprehend the wide needs of others.
It is BRAIN DEATH.
Aging (she's 90) has just made her 'filter' disappear completely, so the things she used to just 'think' now come flying out of her mouth w/o regard to who she hurts or what she says.
She's not sick, in fact, she's in remarkably good health. So it's not illness that she's complaining about--it's EVERYTHING.
Somehow, EVERYTHING is about her. She's not going to change, so we keep contact to an absolute minimum. In fact, I have not seen nor spoken to her for over a year.
riight!Their boundaries go and the really awful
truth comes flying out of their mouths.I have had it if this is what they are REALLY like!
Think about it -- once people become elderly, the multitasking of caring for others in addition to oneself becomes impossible. Eventually, caring for oneself is too much of a burden, too, but your survival instinct says someone has to make sure you're cared for, so you demand others do it. That's what people like to call narcissism. (It isn't, but that's beside the point.)
Compassion and patience are the best way to handle the situation. If there was ever a time to put yourself in someone else's shoes, this is it.
I think we need to differentiate between normalized aging self-focus and clinical narcissism because they are very different and there are elderly narcissists who make the lives of their families a living hell.
No person who grew up with selfish or abusive parents should ever feel a moment of guilt if they drop them in a nursing home when they can no longer do for themselves.
No one should expect to get more than they were willing to give in this life.