Is this considered embezzlement?

As their poa, you took on responsibility to have their money doled out for THEIR needs. Not your kids’ private school, not your own family’s stuff. The only thing you can hope for truly is that the surviving spouse here does not need Medicaid in the next five years as you’ve been gifting yourself.

Your grandparents are not your atm.

Talking to a lawyer wouldn't go amiss.

There could be issues with the situation, now that one gparent has passed and the other is not competent.

IDK if this is embezzlement, I'm not a lawyer, but you should definitely get the legal end of this dealt with.

You are committing theft and elder abuse.
Are you telling us there is some question in your mind about that?

If the one that is living has enough money to privately pay for her care for at least 5 years you should be OKAY as far as her getting Medicaid coverage down the road if needed. It all depends on how much money she has. You should stop writing checks for yourself out of her account right now though. No need for a lawyer at this point, where the potential problem may arise is if she needs to apply for long term care Medicaid. Medicaid workers will look at her financial transactions over the past 5 years and question unusual withdrawals and transfers. If it gets to that point, you will have to explain yourself.

Everything's in an estate that you do not manage, ie what does this mean? That you aren't a trustee? Or not a financial planner? How are you able to write out checks without the estate manager(s) knowing it?

Your remaining grandparent has dementia , meaning she/he is no longer competent to agree to you writing gift checks to yourself . As POA you are committing financial abuse of an elder.

You should return the money you have been taking from the remaining grandparent with dementia .

If this grandparent needs Medicaid within 5 years of the last time you gifted yourself , you could potentially be in trouble with the law . As well as your grandparent would be denied Medicaid .

I don’t understand why you thought it was morally ok to continue to write yourself checks when the grandparent with dementia is no longer competent .

You rationalize it by saying they always had enough to live on and they’ve always agreed to it before and now only feel bad when you find out you are embezzling .

In a nutshell, yes you are committing embezzlement. This is pure elder abuse. Just because you love them and they freely gave you money in the past does not mean you can just write yourself a check and it doesn't mean that you haven't been abusing the situation. This is robbery. You feel horrible? Did you not realize how wrong it was to write yourself a check from their account? Stop it immediately. If you have financial problems, you need to solve those yourself and not keep leaning (or robbing) your grandparents. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it should be harsh. Their money is for THEM only and their care.

I’m baffled at anyone freely taking money from a person with dementia simply because they got used to doing so and it was okay sometime in the past. Bet you wouldn’t have a leg to stand on legally. Try some personal responsibility instead of using a person with dementia as your bank

I’m baffled at anyone freely taking money from a person with dementia simply because they got used to doing so and it was okay sometime in the past. Bet you wouldn’t have a leg to stand on legally. Try some personal responsibility instead of using a person with dementia as your bank

Boucheran, just don’t write anymore checks because dementia is now part of the equation and it “might” be a problem IF she has to apply for Medicaid. If there’s plenty of money to pay for her needs and she passes away before the Medicaid issue, then, it is over.
I feel bad that you went to all the trouble of asking a very serious question as you have a concern you may be in the wrong. To be chastised by people you came for advice is like the politicians who are in the news now! The labels on people - geeeeez …………. sure give advice that may be useful as hard as it may be to hear because it is the truth. But, calling someone criminal names is scary and you just came for advice by asking a question. Some people act (or react) like you took your grandmother and pushed her wheelchair into rush hour traffic on the highway!

Just don’t write anymore checks to yourself! Good luck!

There are a lot of things our op left out.

If she’s the actual poa why doesn’t she know about this estate that apparently is taking care of the demented grandma?

Boucheron, you have got yourself into a situation that may be difficult. It is NOT clear that you have done anything illegal. These are things to think about:
1) Have your grandparents always been well off, to the point where they could easily afford the way that they have subsidised you?
2) How have their finances been managed in the past? Is anyone else keeping a record – for example for income tax purposes, or for the ‘estate that you do not manage’? What records are available for you? Has there been anyone else ‘keeping an eye on this’?
3) Who else gets money from them? Are you the only person they have been so generous to? Is anyone else likely to create problems for you, or accuse you of doing the wrong thing?
4) Who else besides you might expect to inherit from the estate of the survivor? Are they likely to question what you have done? Some charity beneficiaries are quite keen on getting every penny, so they might matter too.
5) You are also ‘an owner on the (checking) account’. Do you use it for your own purposes, including depositing your money into it, as well as writing checks on it? Has it effectively been ‘our account’, or effectively ‘their account’ for which you can sign? Do you have a separate account of your own, as well as this one?
6) Who else knows that this has been going on for years? Importantly, will they back you up in confirming that it was happening by agreement long before dementia came on the scene?

It would be a very good idea to separate your finances and keep proper records at this point. However you can probably get an idea of how much of a problem this is, from the answers to all these questions. If you think it is likely to cause problems (eg someone else wants to inherit and is going to accuse you of ‘stealing’), sort out the facts first. Then yes it would probably be a good idea to take the whole thing to a lawyer. Even doing just that, before any problems arise and as soon as you have realised that you may be questioned, will probably stand you in good stead.

Posters should not make guesses about the criminal law. A crime of theft requires proof beyond reasonable doubt, including proof of intention – the mental element of virtually all crimes. Many of the previous posts are simply WRONG.

By "estate" do you mean Trust? My concern would be if whoever is the Trustee(s), since it is not you, starts asking questions about the grandparent's other financial affairs and starts pointing fingers. While you may be POA and have legal rights to write checks you also have to be accountable for the funds if not now, possibly after the grandparent dies. You say the estate "has more than enough for them to live comfortably" but that is only your opinion. Unexpected things happen every day that can put someone in financial jeopardy. As we grow older, it is very common to be concerned we will outlive our savings no matter how large. If your grandparent ever expresses that concern, someone may begin questioning the records or lack of records. While you may not have done anything "illegal" if it were me, I would be concerned about the "what ifs" that could easily come to pass. As others have suggested, consider that account off limits unless you can justify the spending with documentation available if ever questioned.

You have to tread very carefully here. Others have covered the "whys" of the 5 year Medicaid lookback period (plenty of people think their family member has enough to last them because they have "a lot" of money - but be careful here - if the regular expenses are going out, extraneous expenses like paying for private school and paying for other expenses for you - that "plenty of money" can go faster than you think - ALF, MC and SNF are EXPENSIVE. Depending on how much she has - if you take 10-25% of it each year - and then she needs to go into SNF and needs Medicaid within 5 years - she will not qualify if you do not pay back what she has given you. She would have to leave the facility and you or someone else would have to provide care in the interim until she meets the "payback" period of what you were given. SNF can run anywhere from $75,000 to $150,000 or more a year.

Yes, it could be considered elder financial abuse. When they gave you the money - when they were competent to make their own choices, that was their decision, yes. Probably not the wisest choice given the need to cover their own care - but still their choice to do so. But once you get into dementia territory - where they can no longer make good informed decisions for themselves - yes - it can be considered elder financial abuse. You need to take steps to protect yourself and your grandmother for the future and start getting things in order.

My biggest question for you - and I ask this from experience with what happened to my BIL and SIL once my FIL passed away - WHAT is your plan when your grandmother passes away? You have to understand that while you may have your name on the accounts and have access to those funds - the money that has been going in to build those funds will stop. Any social security and annuity payments will be clawed back post-mortem. And those funds - that were saved for their retirement and medical care - will only last you so long. There will no longer be anyone to buy you a car or pay for your children's private school or any of the things that your grandparents have been paying for - and that money will run out.

For my BIL and SIL - because my FIL was 100% supporting them financially and they were not on any of his accounts - the cut was cold and brutal - my DH is the executor of the estate- and the moment FIL passed away - everything they had been using with his permission - had to be cut off because it was considered fraudulent now that he was dead. They were in a very bad spot.

You may not be in that much of an extreme situation since your name is on the accounts - depending on how the accounts are set up. But you still need to consider that the money will run out and you will need to be able to stand on your own two feet.

You post says your grandparents have ALWAYS helped you. Regardless of your age - that's a long time to be dependent on someone else to step in every time you need help. it's going to be a difficult adjustment for you when the inevitable happens.

I'm not trying to beat you up. When you've always done something and no one seems to think it's out of the ordinary - everyone gets used to that being the status quo. Your grandparents - while you think they were helping you - and they were - they were also doing you a disservice. By continuing to supplement you indefinitely whenever you needed it - it created a dependency on them that has no resolution when they can no longer provide it.

Yes, I think you need to seek out professional advice because you could be getting yourself into a situation that you don’t want to be in.

Boucheran, I would encourage you to consult with an attorney about being POA and writing yourself checks. The law governs what you can legally do and how to do it.

Embezzlement is probably not the only potential issue, you are now a legal fiduciary and that is what you should be worried about. Some of the things you have done violate your fiduciary responsibilities and you really need to get the correct information moving forward.

Honestly, most people have no idea what being a POA is all about and unintentionally do illegal things. Time to get that sorted out and ensure that you are NOT endangering yourself by your actions.

Good luck getting this all sorted out.

I was just thinking about how you have asked for advice and now you have been given a lot of things to consider. I am not sure I would call what you have done as embezzlement because you did not intend to cause harm, but you did continue spending their money without their explicit permission even though they had given it to you in the past for so long.

I hate that you already feel like a fool, a total idiot, are terrified and feel absolutely horrible and now have received some less than kind judgemental comments. Please forgive yourself. It is not the same as excusing what you have done, but do forgive yourself so you can sleep at night and can think clearly while moving forward with changing the way you handle their money. You don't need a "defense" lawyer at this point because it sounds like only you are blaming yourself. However, a good eldercare or estate lawyer would be a good contact to make and be honest with them like you have here and they should be able to advise on the best way to help preserve what is left of your grandparent's checking. They can look at your POA document and help you understand the rights and/or limitations your grandparents intended for you. There are some lawyers that give a first consultation at no charge, but if there are fees you should verify with the lawyer they are considered legal expenses to come out of the checking account. While you are there, it would be a good time to consider what you need in place for your family's future... it is never too early and it can help you understand better how to help your grandparent better. Hopefully, the lawyer can help ease your conscious by educating you on any legal corrections you may or may not need to make.

Hello

Yes this is wrong, sorry. Once the one parent passed, and the surviving one had dementia, that was a sign for you to stop with the check writing for your personal expenses.

I take it you can't mitigate this by paying back most if not all that you have taken since the death and the dementia diagnosis?

Do not ask this question to an internet forum of caregivers to elders, my friend. We are all strangers, not lawyers, and have opinions that don't amount to a hill of beans, tbh. Please speak to an elder care attorney who can answer this question for you w/o passing judgement on you. I doubt you are "embezzling" money since you are an owner of this checking account. But I'm just a layman and cannot put your mind at ease or guide you about what to do if this does turn out to be an issue. Use an internet forum to ask advice about what incontinence products offer the best absorption. Otherwise you'll be a nervous wreck by Monday.

Best of luck.

Without being lawyers, this question can still be weighed in terms of risk and responsibility.

If op is the sole and unchallenged beneficiary of the will and what then remains of the estate or trust, lawyers or cops won’t be interested. The more people there are involved in inheritance, the harder she’ll be questioned.

Even if she is not involved with the trust, there should be communication to whomever is. Where is grandma now?